I'm sure some on here have broke front 60 gears, I'm wondering if any have tried cryo treat and did it make any difference as far as breakage?? or should I just start planning on a 70 up front, it has to be a 70 because I run 7.17 gears and before you ask it was the ring gear teeth that broke not the pinion, I would think that the ring gear teeth would be the same strength for any ratio, when it happened I first thought pinion, but its ok, any input??
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Help Support Hardline Crawlers :
60 front gears cryo ??
- Thread starter millerxc
- Start date
C
Cole
Guest
Bryan Cole broke 3 sets of Cryoed Dana 60 gears. He switched gear manufactures and solved his problem.
crawler1
Well-Known Member
What Brands did he keep breaking , And what is he running know ?
C
Cole
Guest
crawler1 said:
I don't remember.
Josh Bishop
Well-Known Member
Yukon was the gears he was running and went to Richmond and has held up to some pretty hard trashin!
YOUNG
Well-Known Member
I use to have the same issue with gear sets. The problem was solved when I switched over to Richmond Pro Gears. The gears are softer and allow the teeth to flex instead of breaking.
My gears and shafts were supposedly Cryo treated when I bought the rig and I have not broken my 60 front gears yet or shafts. The rear 60 I broke at KOTH for stupid reasons. 
Other than that all good. I believe I am running Richmond gears reverse rotation high pinions. 
Other than that all good. I believe I am running Richmond gears reverse rotation high pinions.
crawler1
Well-Known Member
Is the Treatment expensive for the gears ? Were can you send them to get it done . Would it make my Front and Rear Reverse gears last longer ?
I think that rev rotation gears in the front would solve the problem but not low enough gears for me, I just ordered another set of gears if it doesn't last very long I beleive I'll build a 70 front, gotta make this rig last long enough to build my rockwell rig.
ECGS
Well-Known Member
Should have called me on the gears. We stock toyota cry'od gears... and 60 gears on occasion but only 5.13 or 5.38. As for cryo treatment Bobby long does our gears, there is some techincal stuff about cryo treatment that i think bobby has a handle on, I don't know what the stipulations are but based on what metal it is detrmines how it is cryo treated. I think some cryo guys just freeze it and send it. Bobby has tested his proccesses and has proved his proccess strengthen the metal. Or he is blowing smoke up my ass, one of the two. Some people swear by cryo, some hate on it. I recomend going non cryod the first time around and then going the cryod route. Bobby also heat treats them again after cryo treating them. Which can insure there are no weak points in the metal. Its $45 for the treatment and we can ship them straight to him and back to the customer in about a week week and half time.
Pro gears are made out of 9310 steel instead of the standard 8620 steel that regular gears are made out of. It is a softer metal and absorbs shock loads better than 8620. However 9310 gears wear out they are so soft that they eventialy eat themselves. They were developed for the drag guys. mat the gas 50 times a season and they absorb the shock loads. But they will eventually deteriote. from what im told you can get about 2 seasons out of them. We have sold some but do not have first hand expierence. These race guys plan on replacing them anyway and go threw R&P's like they are bubble gum enter the quick change rearend.
Im interested in seeing the succes of the pro gear in the offroad industry as shock loads are frequent and to see how quickly the gears will wear in typically low speed conditions, or at least not road use. However with any expirement the varaibales need to remain the same. IE most ring and pinion failures are do to set-up errors or bearing failures. Tight bearing preloads to limit deflection is a must and quality patterns, with limited backlash but in spec. We have seen few dana 60 front failures and most were attributed to poor set-ups and on ocassion unbridled abuse. One was a welded carrier on a stock dana/spicer 4.56 set-up low pinion. the pattern was way on the heel of the ring gear on the coast side it was doomed to fail, a little deflection and there is just not enough meat there. The carrier was severly warped causing the ill pattern. Spend the money on a spool it well worth it in the long run. Another was a HP dana 60 w/ factory spicer 5.38 gears, these are designed for a crush sleeve, upon dissassembly about .030 of pinion preload shims were found about .170 off of what it should be with a crush sleeve so the pinion was floating with no bearing preload. this was in hardcore buggy and i think it lasted 2 seasons amazingly enough.
Richmond gears are pretty much trash for street use, There metalurgy is there which for offroad use is really all that matters, but the offshore manufacturers have much better technology for producing gears. Dry cutting, vaccuum heat treatment, douple lapping in the correct location. US gear makes some pretty high quality gears but over the last year most of the gears i have seen from them were not lapped properly again not important for offroad use but all the same. They just don't have high dollar machinery that the major producers have overseas.
One thing to consider when talking about brand names yukon, richmond, precision, motive it really does not matter. Its what is in the box which matters and varies heavily. Richmond and US gear are the only companies cutting gears in the US. everyone else is reboxing gears from india, china, korea, and italy and the two american companies, USA cut gears are for the odd not real popular ratios and application b/c they just can't produce them as effieciently as the offshore guys, the cost is higher though the quality may or may not be better US gear and ricmond are producing all the pro gears. Some talks of the italian gears is the metalurgy is not good, machining is, i have yet to see any results to confirm personally. There is one marking coming out of INDIA that is of good qulaity the rest are junk. There are 2-3 markings coming out of Korea that are of excellent quality. all the 3 major players use these korean manufaturers which i have felt are the best gears for the metalurgy and machining. One of these gears is stamped with a K and a circle around, yukon 14 bolt gears are made there, as most of there 60 stuff and i am speaking of the 5.13 5.38 ratios as thats what we see the most of, these are quality gears no doubt about it. this circle K gear also pops up in other application and ratios as well. But these major players switch companies so much that i could have 10 sets of 4.88 toyota gears on the shelf with 4-5 different markings on them with the same brand box. The other quality marking we see is stamped PG 5.38, YG 5.38 , innitials of manufacturer and the ratio. these are also coming out of korea.
The other issue is say A manufacturer is out of there premium brand they will rebox there low cost brand. We check all the markings on our gears and send them back if they are Low grade india, markings, and some other ones coming out of tiawan and i believe china. When they say why are you returning I tell them b/c i bought x-brand and you sent me a bunch of bullshit but charged me a premium, that usually ends the conversation very quickly. They will also if they are out call another manufactuer say motive or geniune and buy 50 of there low cost gears b/c they hate spending money and rebox them. So frankly its a bit of a crap shoot. Right now is the worst time to buy gears b/c this is the time that inventory levels get the lowest and they are trying to fill orders and make money to make the year.
A quality set up Geniune Gear will still out last a poor setup richmond high nickel plated XP gear. So thats the top priority, housing not way out, true carreir, tight press fit bearings and races ect. Bearing preloads i feel in offroad use need to be tighter than the factory specs, and rarely ever is a carrier bearing over preloaded. Setting a pinion bearing to 45inchlbs in a 60 is okay by me. Sure if its going in tow rig that is hauling ya they will biuld alot of heat escpecailly beore they seat. But for our application they are going to seat in very slowly and will remain preloaded for quite somtime. On a factory set up after 5k miles there is no bearing preload left. the carreirs usually fall out. Enter deflection. Oh and the most imprtant part of the diff biuld is praying over it or sprinkling magic fairy dust which ever you prefer.
Then there is the ratio aspect some ratios are stronger based on number of tooth contact I don't know on the 7.17's and your options are probably limited on gear selections as its not a popular ratio that everyone is cutting. b/c of the ratio and application you could buy motive, yukon, richmond in three boxes and it is the exact sme gear cut on the same run. Cryo may help.
So theres my input when people say yukons,motives ect suck i broke them that is just a tiny swedge of the pie. I think there are haters of every gear brand out there. I think that the precision gears have been historically the best gear on the market. but that may change with the company change.
Tough read but i can't really post this info everywhere and usually explain it over the phone as alot of manufacturers would get pissed. They are trying to make a profit and corners get cut, you just have to weed out the bullshit and try to stay on top of whats happening.
I don't know where you live but if you bring me the diff ill warranty it this gives me the ability to see what actually works in the hardocre arena, where it is trully put to the test.
Pro gears are made out of 9310 steel instead of the standard 8620 steel that regular gears are made out of. It is a softer metal and absorbs shock loads better than 8620. However 9310 gears wear out they are so soft that they eventialy eat themselves. They were developed for the drag guys. mat the gas 50 times a season and they absorb the shock loads. But they will eventually deteriote. from what im told you can get about 2 seasons out of them. We have sold some but do not have first hand expierence. These race guys plan on replacing them anyway and go threw R&P's like they are bubble gum enter the quick change rearend.
Im interested in seeing the succes of the pro gear in the offroad industry as shock loads are frequent and to see how quickly the gears will wear in typically low speed conditions, or at least not road use. However with any expirement the varaibales need to remain the same. IE most ring and pinion failures are do to set-up errors or bearing failures. Tight bearing preloads to limit deflection is a must and quality patterns, with limited backlash but in spec. We have seen few dana 60 front failures and most were attributed to poor set-ups and on ocassion unbridled abuse. One was a welded carrier on a stock dana/spicer 4.56 set-up low pinion. the pattern was way on the heel of the ring gear on the coast side it was doomed to fail, a little deflection and there is just not enough meat there. The carrier was severly warped causing the ill pattern. Spend the money on a spool it well worth it in the long run. Another was a HP dana 60 w/ factory spicer 5.38 gears, these are designed for a crush sleeve, upon dissassembly about .030 of pinion preload shims were found about .170 off of what it should be with a crush sleeve so the pinion was floating with no bearing preload. this was in hardcore buggy and i think it lasted 2 seasons amazingly enough.
Richmond gears are pretty much trash for street use, There metalurgy is there which for offroad use is really all that matters, but the offshore manufacturers have much better technology for producing gears. Dry cutting, vaccuum heat treatment, douple lapping in the correct location. US gear makes some pretty high quality gears but over the last year most of the gears i have seen from them were not lapped properly again not important for offroad use but all the same. They just don't have high dollar machinery that the major producers have overseas.
One thing to consider when talking about brand names yukon, richmond, precision, motive it really does not matter. Its what is in the box which matters and varies heavily. Richmond and US gear are the only companies cutting gears in the US. everyone else is reboxing gears from india, china, korea, and italy and the two american companies, USA cut gears are for the odd not real popular ratios and application b/c they just can't produce them as effieciently as the offshore guys, the cost is higher though the quality may or may not be better US gear and ricmond are producing all the pro gears. Some talks of the italian gears is the metalurgy is not good, machining is, i have yet to see any results to confirm personally. There is one marking coming out of INDIA that is of good qulaity the rest are junk. There are 2-3 markings coming out of Korea that are of excellent quality. all the 3 major players use these korean manufaturers which i have felt are the best gears for the metalurgy and machining. One of these gears is stamped with a K and a circle around, yukon 14 bolt gears are made there, as most of there 60 stuff and i am speaking of the 5.13 5.38 ratios as thats what we see the most of, these are quality gears no doubt about it. this circle K gear also pops up in other application and ratios as well. But these major players switch companies so much that i could have 10 sets of 4.88 toyota gears on the shelf with 4-5 different markings on them with the same brand box. The other quality marking we see is stamped PG 5.38, YG 5.38 , innitials of manufacturer and the ratio. these are also coming out of korea.
The other issue is say A manufacturer is out of there premium brand they will rebox there low cost brand. We check all the markings on our gears and send them back if they are Low grade india, markings, and some other ones coming out of tiawan and i believe china. When they say why are you returning I tell them b/c i bought x-brand and you sent me a bunch of bullshit but charged me a premium, that usually ends the conversation very quickly. They will also if they are out call another manufactuer say motive or geniune and buy 50 of there low cost gears b/c they hate spending money and rebox them. So frankly its a bit of a crap shoot. Right now is the worst time to buy gears b/c this is the time that inventory levels get the lowest and they are trying to fill orders and make money to make the year.
A quality set up Geniune Gear will still out last a poor setup richmond high nickel plated XP gear. So thats the top priority, housing not way out, true carreir, tight press fit bearings and races ect. Bearing preloads i feel in offroad use need to be tighter than the factory specs, and rarely ever is a carrier bearing over preloaded. Setting a pinion bearing to 45inchlbs in a 60 is okay by me. Sure if its going in tow rig that is hauling ya they will biuld alot of heat escpecailly beore they seat. But for our application they are going to seat in very slowly and will remain preloaded for quite somtime. On a factory set up after 5k miles there is no bearing preload left. the carreirs usually fall out. Enter deflection. Oh and the most imprtant part of the diff biuld is praying over it or sprinkling magic fairy dust which ever you prefer.
Then there is the ratio aspect some ratios are stronger based on number of tooth contact I don't know on the 7.17's and your options are probably limited on gear selections as its not a popular ratio that everyone is cutting. b/c of the ratio and application you could buy motive, yukon, richmond in three boxes and it is the exact sme gear cut on the same run. Cryo may help.
So theres my input when people say yukons,motives ect suck i broke them that is just a tiny swedge of the pie. I think there are haters of every gear brand out there. I think that the precision gears have been historically the best gear on the market. but that may change with the company change.
Tough read but i can't really post this info everywhere and usually explain it over the phone as alot of manufacturers would get pissed. They are trying to make a profit and corners get cut, you just have to weed out the bullshit and try to stay on top of whats happening.
I don't know where you live but if you bring me the diff ill warranty it this gives me the ability to see what actually works in the hardocre arena, where it is trully put to the test.
GONOVRIT
Well-Known Member
Damn Chase, that was a good looong read. I'll definetly bring my junk up to you when it explodes
ECGS
Well-Known Member
ya i have had them for like a month and i have the fornt 3rd ready to be biult waiting on your rear. ill call you.
