Solid Pinion Spacer vs. Crush Sleeve?

London Gentleman · May 17, 2012

What's your guys opinion on either? When setting up gears, what do you prefer? And explain...

Boonie and I were setting up my diff(he did most of the work:redneck: ) and we got to talking about what we think is better.

zukkev · May 17, 2012

No question a crush sleeve eliminator...especially in a wheeler, where the gears have a very high potential for shock loads...with a crush sleeve, the preload set by said crush sleeve can potentially lose it's 'spring', effectivley losing any pinion preload it had...quickest way to pinion brng failure...

Boonie Buster · May 17, 2012

How did I know when I read the title that you had posted this.

I'm curious as to what others think as well. :corn:

I can see the crush sleeve being desirable as it comes with the "kit" so it's not an extra part to buy. Easier to setup essentially, you crank on the nut till it has preload, done.

I can also see how a solid spacer is good, no flex as zukkev mentioned, repeatability with pinion preload using shims, assuming the bearings aren't toasted.

I would argue (of course with nothing to back it up) that a crush sleeve would have to have some very severe shock, to the point of something else in the diff failing, before it "lost it's spring". I just feel that something else in the diff would have been setup wrong or failed in order for the crush sleeve to not keep tension on the bearings (pinion nut coming loose, bearing failure, etc.)

I know you guys will correct me since i'm wrong. :redneck:

Binder · May 17, 2012

Never use a crush sleeve for a wheeler if you have an option to eliminate it.

skinny_pedal · May 17, 2012

Even better early toy diffs had a solid pinion spacer.

Hip · May 17, 2012

in fact most aftermarket pinon shafts do not have a place for a crush sleeve, there is only room for shims.....even yukon have eliminated the sleeve.

KarlVP · May 17, 2012

Hip said:
in fact most aftermarket pinon shafts do not have a place for a crush sleeve, there is only room for shims.....even yukon have eliminated the sleeve.

Yup, I got my new ring and pinion for my 60 and ordered 2 crush sleeves for it. Was surprised to find out the crush sleeve doesn't fit on it. Only room for shims. :awesomework:

CHOP SHOP · May 17, 2012

Boonie Buster said:
I would argue (of course with nothing to back it up) that a crush sleeve would have to have some very severe shock, to the point of something else in the diff failing, before it "lost it's spring". I just feel that something else in the diff would have been setup wrong or failed in order for the crush sleeve to not keep tension on the bearings (pinion nut coming loose, bearing failure, etc.)

I know you guys will correct me since i'm wrong. :redneck:

Your thinking with your BRAIN, not with others advice or internet guiding. Good job Boonie, look past worthless advice and use REASON. Good on ya.

You are correct Boonie, a crush sleeve can only fail if other things fail too.

Think about it, a crush sleeve HAS to get SHORTER to fail. The only way it can get shorter is if the BEARINGS/RACES are able to get CLOSER to each other.

If the bearings can move then the races are not seated proplerly and the crush sleeve is not to blame. The bearing install is.

If the pinion has contacted the carrier then MOST folks will blame the crush sleeve, saying it let the pinion move closer to the carrier when it crushed the sleeve more and failed. WRONG the only way a pinion can contact the carrier is if the bearings move/wear or the pinion NUT BACKS OFF.

Do any of you own a car with a solid spacer or crush sleeve in between the wheel bearings? Didnt think so. I mean cmon, wheel bearings fail all the time cuz they have no solid spacer, right?

Folks that dont quite understand how forces are pushed inside a diff will blame all kinds of things when a failure happens.

I have brought this up before and got shot down by folks that should know better. I expected all the internet "know it all, but never done its" to shoot me down but other folks that should get it still dont.

Good topic. Nobody will have any EVIDENCE of a crush sleeve failing, just speculation and blame for poor crush sleeves.

CHOP SHOP · May 17, 2012

zukkev said:
No question a crush sleeve eliminator...especially in a wheeler, where the gears have a very high potential for shock loads...with a crush sleeve, the preload set by said crush sleeve can potentially lose it's 'spring', effectivley losing any pinion preload it had...quickest way to pinion brng failure...

Just what load would cause a bearing to INCREASE its preload all by it self to the pint that it has crushed the sleeve?

I think folks mistake worn bearings or a race not seating for a crush sleeve failing.

CHOP SHOP · May 17, 2012

Also, who has actually got a toyota setup kit pinion nut to actually hold enough torque to crush the sleeve without pulling the threads clean out of the nut? :corn:

CHOP SHOP · May 17, 2012

Some more education in here.

http://www.nw-wheelers.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43376&highlight=crush+sleeve

CHOP SHOP · May 17, 2012

Another

http://www.nw-wheelers.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41529&highlight=crush+sleeve

zukkev · May 17, 2012

Have you ever over-crushed a sleeve on the bench, causing too much preload? The sleeve is a bitch to get crushed I'll agree, and if you can overdo it on a bench, by hand or impact (whichever method you choose), then the shock loads created against the sleeve in very fast, short bursts out in the field of even the most properly and carefully set up diff can and will over time beat that 'spring' down, effectively doing the same thing you can do by hand on the bench...
If I have a choice, I am spending the little extra time and using solid spacers/shims whenever possible...To each their own...

zukkev · May 17, 2012

As far a shimming a crush sleeve, there comes a point when the sleeve goes past the point where it can effectively give proper preload AND torque at the same time...it's a fine line, and when it goes past their designed point of achieving both values, the sleeve crushes way to easy at that point...

Hip · May 17, 2012

Also if during a shock load the diff housing can and will flex allowing the sleeve to be crushed more. then when the flex back occurs you now have loose bearings and a pinon shaft walking back and forth.....with the pinon nut still tight.

speaking from first hand experience here. this happened to my front D44 which is from a GM 3/4 ton which is the beefiest 44 out there.

CHOP SHOP · May 17, 2012

Things under load DONT "flex" together. They flex APART.

CHOP SHOP · May 17, 2012

Hip said:
Also if during a shock load the diff housing can and will flex allowing the sleeve to be crushed more. then when the flex back occurs you now have loose bearings and a pinon shaft walking back and forth.....with the pinon nut still tight.

THE ONLY way that can happen is if pinion races IN the hoising were not seated all the way.

If the pinion nut/yoke/flange is still tight then bearings did NOT move, races did.

Pinion forces will NEVER pull two TAPERED bearings together, only apart.

WHITE TRASH1 · May 17, 2012

CHOP SHOP said:
Things under load DONT "flex" together. They flex APART.

Depending on whether you are driving on the coast or drive side of the gears you may or may not be correct.

Case flex happens. It is what kills a lot of 4 cylinder gear sets and causes those marks in the carrier from the pinion.

The V6 carrier doesn't get those marks often since the case is so much stiffer. Ironic I know... :redneck:

CHOP SHOP · May 17, 2012

WHITE TRASH said:
Depending on whether you are driving on the coast or drive side of the gears you may or may not be correct.

Case flex happens. It is what kills a lot of 4 cylinder gear sets and causes those marks in the carrier from the pinion.

The V6 carrier doesn't get those marks often since the case is so much stiffer. Ironic I know... :redneck:

How does the drive VS coast side affect flex? Both push the ring away from the pinion.

Running on one VS the other will not change the direction of the flexing.

The coast side will always flex the diff more (its a ramped tooth) and the drive side will flex less the housing less cuz the tooth is more squarely "pushing" the tooth instead of wanting to climb a ramp and just skip by.