Elbe Hills Focus Group Summary

[CHOP SHOP]

Because Devon beat me too it. He's on the same list of people that get emails from the DNR about the meetings. Email Nancy Barker if you want to be on the list to get notified. [email protected] We only got the finalized meeting date, location and agenda from the DNR a couple of days before the meeting.

thats a shitty excuse for not bumping it or even bringing it up. toilet drinking dog got 17 hits in one night!! :booo: bump that **** as much as you ramble about the NEW TRAIL project, then people will see it, attend it, and PARTICIPATE.

almost the way law makers slide **** in when nobodys looking.

 

[CHOP SHOP]

Yeah Brian that's just what I'm going to do. I have no more enforcement abilities than you do. I'm simply reporting the results of the meeting. I didn't make the rule that there should be a width or length restriction, the DNR did.

It doesn't matter what size was decided upon, someone's going to whine about it.

you seem to be DNRs big connection at elbe. ive lived in that area fo 30 years and never seen them care about anything but logging. also just curioius how many of the rollers rigs are illeagel on the busy.

remember that tattle tale **** we talked about and you said you didnt understand what i was referring to--- no one helps you at elbe because they feel theey are helping the enemy. NERDS that hang out with the cops never find the party.:fawkdancesmiley: :fawkdancesmiley:

 

[4link]

i don't believe all the heavy flaming on bible thumpers is the answer here. gibby did say that he was blindsided at the meeting by nancy about the restrictions. this will do nothing but cause gibby to withdraw from forum discussions on important issues with elbe. i do think gibby has done an excellent job with elbe and alot of important things have been accomplished thanks to him. i don't think this whole situation was handled in the best way.i don't think that he should have allowed a serious decision to be made at the drop of a hat. i don't think that nancy was or is understanding of the fact that somebody in a 73' k5 on 35's with an exo cage can do alot of damage to resources and still be within the restrictions.
is this still up for debate/comment or is this something that is already settled???

 

[Gibby1]

i think this is what upsets me the most. you post that rubbing trees is expected and the dnr is aware of this condition and taken this into account.then post up that it's unacceptable to rub and/or climbing tree stumps and/or root balls and nancy will not allow it. how you've posted that elbe will be the place to go for big rigs and won't have restrictions in the way of the national forest land. quite frankly the "i have nancy in my back pocket attitude". all the talk about being fined for being in the wrong area without the "recommended" equipment. i don't believe all the fines and restrictions are in the best interest of the offroad community.you are allowing the alienation of certain portions of a user group. i commend you on the effort in the new proposed area's but maybe too much focus has been put on that. it seems we have taken 1 step forward and 1 step back. i won't go as far as to say bring steve back, but i guarantee he would have kicked, screamed and never allowed this to have happened.

I understand the confusion and it bothered me as well to get two different answers so I'll do what I can to explain. The DNR person that told us about the not caring what we do to the trees was the person responsible for managing the TIMBER aspect of things. The consider everything within the trail corridor dead to them. But what we find out is that they people responsibile for the trail issue DO care but for different reasons. They don't care that the tree is lost to a timber sale, they care because a dead tree or lost support around a tree creates a trail hazard for trees that will more easily blow down or fall over.

You have to understand the political game in that I have absolutely no power or authority to make anything happen. I have a responsibility as a representative of the PNW4WDA to work with the DNR to negotiate changes specific to Elbe Hills ORV park, and nothing else. When we go to meetings, I have no more authority than anyone else there. I assist with co-ordinating volunteers to help out with with work parties.

Steve had no more authority to allow or disallow anything. This is a game of negotiating and you win some and lose some.

I will say again, if ANYONE wants the VOLUNTEER job, come on out to the next PNW4WDA Region 2 meeting and put your name in for the position. I have more than enough to do in life and I took the position on because Steve was removed from it and no one else volunteered. I'd rather be wheeling...

 

[CHOP SHOP]

i don't believe all the heavy flaming on bible thumpers is the answer here. gibby did say that he was blindsided at the meeting by nancy about the restrictions. this will do nothing but cause gibby to withdraw from forum discussions on important issues with elbe. i do think gibby has done an excellent job with elbe and alot of important things have been accomplished thanks to him.

the bible thumpers are the only group that i have ever ran into at elbe that bitched about our group.:booo:

and what -- like running the busy downhill, its so cooooool that way:rb:

does nancy wheel?? maybe she should get involved a hobby that she is affecting (or infecting).

 

[Brian H]

the bible thumpers are the only group that i have ever ran into at elbe that bitched about our group.:booo:

and what -- like running the busy downhill, its so cooooool that way:rb:

does nancy wheel?? maybe she should get involved a hobby that she is affecting (or infecting).

No Nancy doesnt wheel nor does she know anything about it. See this is where Gibby comes in. With his input this is where the width restriction has come into play. He told her...."well it is very tight for my runner to make it through that trail so if anything bigger goes through it wont make it so my width and length should be the limit" .. Well I would garranty Robin could drive his buggy on 49s through it and run the whole trail and not do any bypasses.

 

[Gibby1]

i don't believe all the heavy flaming on bible thumpers is the answer here. gibby did say that he was blindsided at the meeting by nancy about the restrictions. this will do nothing but cause gibby to withdraw from forum discussions on important issues with elbe. i do think gibby has done an excellent job with elbe and alot of important things have been accomplished thanks to him. i don't think this whole situation was handled in the best way.i don't think that he should have allowed a serious decision to be made at the drop of a hat. i don't think that nancy was or is understanding of the fact that somebody in a 73' k5 on 35's with an exo cage can do alot of damage to resources and still be within the restrictions.
is this still up for debate/comment or is this something that is already settled???

Actually, Nancy does understand that. That came up in the discussion. To meet the requirments that she wanted, the only thing that would've fit would be flat fenders and samis. She wanted a limitation that would allow the vehicles to fit through without touching ANY trees. Clearly what we ended up agreeing to is WAY bigger than than. Of the people that attended the meeting, I happen to have to largest trail vehicle there and I know how well I fit and don't fit. The fact is, I BARELY fit and based on that we rounded up my size. We also did this to accomodate MOST vehicles. When I told her that I could do front wheel digs to get my front end around or through an obstacle without having to climb the tree, she argued that that means that I didn't fit. It was very clearly stated that she didn't want a situation where tires were climbing up one tree or both trees to get through. That simply wasn't up for negotiation. I didn't even bother at that point to let her know that I used my sliders to get around tight corners or we would've lost even more ground.

We put in the argument about buggies and other "non-full bodied rigs" and how they can fit in placed better at time because they have significantly narrowed bodies but that didn't really get us anywhere.

The reality is, there are placed on the Busy where if you're wider than about 76" you ARE going to climb up the root ball or bottom of a tree trunk. We gained about 6" in width compared to what she wanted. The length was competely up for grabs as she didn't know what to choose. I know that I'm 3" longer than stock and we stuck an extra inch on that. But at the same time, a LWB rig simply doesn't fit properly on that trail especially given the standards the DNR wanted to use to define what does and does not fit.

If a decision was not made on what size to allow, it was going to simply be decided for us.

Funny, I don't here anyone arguing that we are putting up a gatekeeper to keep the undersized rigs out.

 

[CHOP SHOP]

No Nancy doesnt wheel nor does she know anything about it. See this is where Gibby comes in. With his input this is where the width restriction has come into play. He told her...."well it is very tight for my runner to make it through that trail so if anything bigger goes through it wont make it so my width and length should be the limit" .. Well I would garranty Robin could drive his buggy on 49s through it and run the whole trail and not do any bypasses.

thanks brian. needed some one else to say it. :awesomework:

there was NOTHING wrong with elbe 10 years ago.

what would be the worst thing that could have happened if no one replaced steve --maybe DNR would have less input.:awesomework:

 

[Gibby1]

No Nancy doesnt wheel nor does she know anything about it. See this is where Gibby comes in. With his input this is where the width restriction has come into play. He told her...."well it is very tight for my runner to make it through that trail so if anything bigger goes through it wont make it so my width and length should be the limit" .. Well I would garranty Robin could drive his buggy on 49s through it and run the whole trail and not do any bypasses.

This is where Brian shows that he has no idea what he's talking about. Yes, we know that Robin could get through but NOT meeting the standards that the DNR wanted to set about what could and could not fit.

The fact is Brian, I DON'T FIT, according to what they wanted. One of the guys in my club whose done a TON of work out there doesn't fit the length requirements either, he's at 112" and he drives the busy every time he's at Elbe which is a LOT. And so that would be 1 of the 7 active members in our club.

 

[Brian H]

This is where Brian shows that he has no idea what he's talking about. Yes, we know that Robin could get through but NOT meeting the standards that the DNR wanted to set about what could and could not fit.

The fact is Brian, I DON'T FIT, according to what they wanted. One of the guys in my club whose done a TON of work out there doesn't fit the length requirements either, he's at 112" and he drives the busy every time he's at Elbe which is a LOT.

So does he get a fine now?

 

[wheelinjp]

part of promoting a meeting is not just posting it then letting it get burried. just notice how many people responded???:booo:

more attention was brought from the toilet drinking dog thread last night.:cheer:


that thread should have been bumped every night till the meeting.
dale why didnt you post it up instead of 426rider, if im looking for elbe meeting dates, wouldnt i just look at all threads started by gibby, you are the elbe dictator shouldnt you post the **** so it can be found easily.

i get the feeling that the rollers dont want anybody elses veiw at these meetings. :rb:

You guys are funny. You never gave two shits before you felt your freedom was being taken away even though that has been happening for years.These guys have been in the boring time consuming trenches going to meetings and focus groups fighting to keep trails open. Then you guys armchair quarterback and bitch that they arent doing what you want. Get off your ass and do something LEGAL to get it the way you want it. Other green groups watch this site and you guys post up assinine threats of breaking our own rules and they see this and copy it and save it. It makes more sense to me if it is so important to you then go to every meeting, where you would learn when and where the next meeting is by the way. Then you will also be heard and work together to get what you want. One important thing you will learn is that even then you will still have to compromise to get most of what you want. That is what gibby had to do I am sure. You look at it as him making sure his rig fits when he has a bigger rig too. At least he got that. Probably using his rig as an example. ANyway this is all mute since you guys wont do anything but bitch about it and try to break the rules cause you are all rebels. Good example to set for the greenys on how we police our own:awesomework: One other thing, what does someones religion have to do with the work they are doing for us to keep the trails open? I am glad gibby has the faith and dedication to us and you jackasses to follow through with what he does. THanks for all your hard work dale, I appreciate it.

 

[4link]

well, what the hell were you doing to get jacked up by the faithwheelers? were you the guys driving up to the campsite around barricades? i find it hard to believe they would just bitch because.

yes, i do think running the busy downhill is super:rb:. but on the other hand i think that is a viable concession to make because your not excluding any portion of the user group by doing so. everybody can still run it.

i just don't think nancy is aware that a good portion of the 4x4 community go to elbe for the sole purpose of running the busy. i know i do. the exclusion of certain portions of this group will do nothing but create an atmosphere where people won't show for work party's as brian has stated and will cause pissed off wheelers that don't meet requirements to enter the busy and purposely tear it up.

 

[Gibby1]

So does he get a fine now?

Yes, if he's caught running it while someone is there to enforce it (that would be Nancy or the DNR cop).

However, instead of whining about it, he decided that it was time to finally get his broncoII project done and move the running gear off his explorer to a BroncoII so that he would fit.

Hey Brian, you're a Region 2 member, why don't you step up and take the job? You can have it. I know that you think you could do better.

 

[Brian H]

well, what the hell were you doing to get jacked up by the faithwheelers? were you the guys driving up to the campsite around barricades? i find it hard to believe they would just bitch because.

yes, i do think running the busy downhill is super:rb:. but on the other hand i think that is a viable concession to make because your not excluding any portion of the user group by doing so. everybody can still run it.

i just don't think nancy is aware that a good portion of the 4x4 community go to elbe for the sole purpose of running the busy. i know i do. the exclusion of certain portions of this group will do nothing but create an atmosphere where people won't show for work party's as brian has stated and will cause pissed off wheelers that don't meet requirements to enter the busy and purposely tear it up.

What is th purpose of putting this restriction in effect in the first place? I was all about doing these work parties and meetings until i was told I am to wide to run the only trail worth a damn up there. Now I have kinda changed my mind on helping out. Why should I? So the guys that are up in age and drive there jeeps that havent change sense 1970 can run the trails. Face it....4x4s have grown and the technolegy is way better. A wider rig is more stable and bigger tires make it so you can go through stuff easier. In return will make less damage to a trail. You get a old schoolers jeep that is running on 33s (which they put on back in the day cause they were bigger that stock) will dig holes trying to get over something when the bigger tire will just roll over it with ease.

 

[Brian H]

Yes, if he's caught running it while someone is there to enforce it (that would be Nancy or the DNR cop).

However, instead of whining about it, he decided that it was time to finally get his broncoII project done and move the running gear off his explorer to a BroncoII so that he would fit.

Hey Brian, you're a Region 2 member, why don't you step up and take the job? You can have it. I know that you think you could do better.

I never said I could do it better and I am not shooting you down for what you do. I just dont agree on some of the things that happen .I really wish I could have made that meeting to speak my mind on the width restriction.

 

[Gibby1]

i just don't think nancy is aware that a good portion of the 4x4 community go to elbe for the sole purpose of running the busy. i know i do. the exclusion of certain portions of this group will do nothing but create an atmosphere where people won't show for work party's as brian has stated and will cause pissed off wheelers that don't meet requirements to enter the busy and purposely tear it up.

She actually does know that. I've been bringing that to her attention for 2 years now. That's why they busy deteriorate so quickly because everyone with built rigs does ONLY the busy and most of the other trails are unused in comparison. It's because of that that we got approval to change the Rainier Vista to a double black diamond trail and build a rock crawl, for the specific purpose taking some of the stress of the busy and give those people more places to wheel at Elbe. The end result is limiting access to a FEW of the people that run the busy on a regular basis but we're putting in new places purposefully designed to handle them.

I like how policing our own and tattling are the same thing, depending on what side of the table your own. CHOP SHOP's issue wasn't even with our club or any of our members. None of us said anything to anyone about anything they did. I did send him a PM telling him in the future to stay on the trail rather than driving up through the trees to get around someone that was stuck. But the people who were there in the situation did not include ANYONE from my club.

 

[Gibby1]

What is th purpose of putting this restriction in effect in the first place? I was all about doing these work parties and meetings until i was told I am to wide to run the only trail worth a damn up there. Now I have kinda changed my mind on helping out. Why should I? So the guys that are up in age and drive there jeeps that havent change sense 1970 can run the trails. Face it....4x4s have grown and the technolegy is way better. A wider rig is more stable and bigger tires make it so you can go through stuff easier. In return will make less damage to a trail. You get a old schoolers jeep that is running on 33s (which they put on back in the day cause they were bigger that stock) will dig holes trying to get over something when the bigger tire will just roll over it with ease.

The purpose of the width restriction has already been stated multiple times in this thread. I believe that Nancy walked the trail over the last month while they were dumping rocks along the trail from the helicopter (we had no say about that either), and she saw all the damage being done to the bottom few feet of the trees and to the root balls that are now all being exposed. This creates a situation to damage the viability of the tree and a danger that the tree will easily fall over perhaps injuring someone. It has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with old school wheelers and their 33" tires on their Jeeps. Changes in wheeling technology do absolutely nothing to make a vehicle's tires fit between two trees that are too close together for the vehicle to fit. That's simple math.

Spinning tires on the roots and digging away the dirt around the roots creates the same issue. When she shot down a simple front wheel dig (which is a sample of the improved technology that you speak of) as being damaging, I knew it was a battle that wasn't going to be easily one. The damage to trees along the trail on the busy is extensive. There are fresh bark removals all over the place and fresh winch cable damage from not using tree savers at every major winch site. She probably had her bosses out there since they were spending $32k on helicoptering rock in along the trail.

 

[Brian H]

The purpose of the width restriction has already been stated multiple times in this thread. I believe that Nancy walked the trail over the last month while they were dumping rocks along the trail from the helicopter (we had no say about that either), and she saw all the damage being done to the bottom few feet of the trees and to the root balls that are now all being exposed. This creates a situation to damage the viability of the tree and a danger that the tree will easily fall over perhaps injuring someone. It has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with old school wheelers and their 33" tires on their Jeeps. Changes in wheeling technology do absolutely nothing to make a vehicle's tires fit between two trees that are too close together for the vehicle to fit. That's simple math.

Spinning tires on the roots and digging away the dirt around the roots creates the same issue. When she shot down a simple front wheel dig (which is a sample of the improved technology that you speak of) as being damaging, I knew it was a battle.

No matter if a wider rig rubs the trees or the smaller rig rubs the trees....its going to happen no matter what.

 

[Gibby1]

Quoting from Nancy's email, the topic of width restriction wasn't even on the agenda. It was obviously a last minute issue either directed by her or her bosses.


Trail Ratings

Trail Adoptions

Campground Issues

Round Robin

 

[Brian H]

Quoting from Nancy's email, the topic of width restriction wasn't even on the agenda. It was obviously a last minute issue either directed by her or her bosses.


Trail Ratings

Trail Adoptions

Campground Issues

Round Robin

??????????:eeek: