Hydraulic Info??

DirtMonkey · Jan 19, 2015

Ok, I have this hydraulic power unit...its a used Barnes model. I want to go elec/hydro on my bender. Rigging the bender mod is straight forward, but I'm not sure I picked up the right power unit. I have no idea what application this one was used on prior, but if I understand this right, the unit drives a cylinder until desired end point then the solenoid "A" is energized allowing flow which would allow the cylinder to gravity descend. Correct? I'm thinking this was used on a lift gate or something similar, where the work weight lowered the cylinder.

Being that I want to drive a double action cylinder with a 4 way valve like this http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_472_472?cm_mmc=Google-pla-_-Hydraulics-_-Hydraulic%20Valves-_-2020&ci_src=17588969&ci_sku=2020&ci_src=17588969&ci_sku=2020&gclid=Cj0KEQiAuMOlBRDf6_izz93n-pEBEiQAsJCJWmfxkY7ZcLuqYsnomNx_N5wu6uzGI4Ez3OnFaIQej3QaAmx28P8HAQ Could I just wire "A" to be open all the time and use the 4 way to drive the fluid? I've seen the power units with just a return and pressure outputs and no solenoid. Is that what I have to get or can this unit work?
Any info is appreciated

Hucklebuggy · Jan 19, 2015

Is the solenoid integrated into the pump itself? Most power units I see just have a small pump mounted directly to the motor or engine. Then plumbing usually goes to some type of distribution block where the hook ups, and (I would expect) the solenoid would be. If that's the case you could just plumb around the solenoid, and straight to a 2 way valve.
I bet that valve would work, just make sure you plumb it with the detent on the retract function. You might check Surplus Center also for the valve. Not sure how their pricing would compare to the one you linked, but they are usually priced pretty well for simply stuff like that.

Toddy · Jan 19, 2015

Depends on if it normally open or closed. Either way you can do it with air on the return. If it's closed you can do it two way. A T with a ball valve to return to tank or power to open it. If it's open a ball valve on return side of cylinder with air on it to push back.

We used a 12v pump on ours. It was closed center. Meaning it was only open when pumping. Plumbed a T and ball valve at cylinder and air on other end of cylinder. T and ball valve dumped into tank. Close it to bend and open it and air would push cylinder back and fluid to tank.

DirtMonkey · Jan 19, 2015

Damn pic isnt showing up..I'll post up the pic later, that might help make sense of it. I really dont want to use air also to get the cylinder retracted.
The solenoid is integrated into the pump. (since pic isnt working right now, its one of the motor/pump/reservoir units)

Toddy · Jan 19, 2015

I assume it is 12 volt right? How you gonna power it? A single battery won't last long having to stroke a cylinder both ways for each bend.

I'm sure there are other ways of doing it but don't sale off the air idea all together.

We also used an old winch controller to work the pump. Worked great if you have an old one laying around.

DirtMonkey · Jan 19, 2015

Ok, pics should be showing now. Its an AC motor. I just want to run line into (B) and out (D) and drive a 2 way valve. But (A) is leaving me skeptical. I've never used one of these, so I dont know if I can just run with A open and do that?

Hucklebuggy · Jan 20, 2015

The solenoid is most likely a release valve for single acting cylinders. Like described here http://www.surpluscenter.com/Hydraulics/Hydraulic-Power-Units/AC-Power-Units/2-HP-115-230-VAC-1-3-GPM-2500-PSI-SA-POWER-PACK-9-7137.axd

But if that is the case, you should only have one port coming out of the pump I think. Maybe the top port was just a tank vent? Is the Cap vented?

If that is the case, you should be able to just not power the solenoid at all to run it with a separate valve. The solenoid would only open a port to let the fluid flow back to the tank from port "D". If it were powered all the time you would not build any pressure. So in your case (if it is just a release valve) Plumb ....Port "D" --> Valve "IN" and Port "B" --> Valve "Out".

Depending on the flow of the pump you may want to look at a valve that has metering capability, so that you can control how fast your ram moves. I think those wood splitter valves are just on/off/on without much speed control.

I think I would have to put a cheap barbed fitting in each port, run a piece of fuel hose from each into a clean bucket (or milk jug) and turn on the pump. Note fluid flow. Power the solenoid, and then turn it on again. Just be sure to have the tank full each time because it will probably drain it pretty fast.

Or you could just use shop air and blow gun with rubber tip. Without power to solenoid try to pressure up port "D". It should hold pressure against you. Then power the solenoid, and apply pressure again. It should let air go back to the tank. Check port "B" while your at it, to make sure it allows flow back to the tank in both conditions.

DirtMonkey · Jan 20, 2015

Hucklebuggy said:
The solenoid is most likely a release valve for single acting cylinders. Like described here http://www.surpluscenter.com/Hydraulics/Hydraulic-Power-Units/AC-Power-Units/2-HP-115-230-VAC-1-3-GPM-2500-PSI-SA-POWER-PACK-9-7137.axd

But if that is the case, you should only have one port coming out of the pump I think. Maybe the top port was just a tank vent? Is the Cap vented?

If that is the case, you should be able to just not power the solenoid at all to run it with a separate valve. The solenoid would only open a port to let the fluid flow back to the tank from port "D". If it were powered all the time you would not build any pressure. So in your case (if it is just a release valve) Plumb ....Port "D" --> Valve "IN" and Port "B" --> Valve "Out".

Depending on the flow of the pump you may want to look at a valve that has metering capability, so that you can control how fast your ram moves. I think those wood splitter valves are just on/off/on without much speed control.

I think I would have to put a cheap barbed fitting in each port, run a piece of fuel hose from each into a clean bucket (or milk jug) and turn on the pump. Note fluid flow. Power the solenoid, and then turn it on again. Just be sure to have the tank full each time because it will probably drain it pretty fast.

Or you could just use shop air and blow gun with rubber tip. Without power to solenoid try to pressure up port "D". It should hold pressure against you. Then power the solenoid, and apply pressure again. It should let air go back to the tank. Check port "B" while your at it, to make sure it allows flow back to the tank in both conditions.

Thanks, good info. That is what I'm hoping I can do…. I can speculate all day, but at some point I need to rig up some lines and see what is really going on with this thing. I am curious about this " you may want to look at a valve that has metering capability" I'm not familiar with this type of valve. Do you have a link or more info?

Thanks!

Hucklebuggy · Jan 20, 2015

I think this one would do it. http://www.surpluscenter.com/Hydraulics/Hydraulic-Valves/Directional-Control-Valves/1-SPOOL-BRAND-DA-VALVE-W-FLOW-REG-SDCF755TM184LF1-9-5174.axd
Notice how it mentions flow and speed control. I have no idea if this one would actually be sized right for your pump. You want to match flow and pressure rating of pump and valve pretty close I would think. Hopefully you can go smaller to save $$.

A valve like this will allow you to barely pull the handle a little, and make your cylinder move very slowly. The more you pull the handle, the more flow you get, and the faster the ram travels.

The log splitter valves, I don't think do this. They are just open or closed, so you get pretty much full flow and one speed. Of course if your pump is slow enough, this will be fine. You might want to hook the pump up to the cylinder before you select a valve, so you know how fast it will travel loaded and unloaded.

ALLJ · Jan 20, 2015

That unit looks like a setup from a shop lift

DirtMonkey · Jan 20, 2015

Hucklebuggy said:
I think this one would do it. http://www.surpluscenter.com/Hydraulics/Hydraulic-Valves/Directional-Control-Valves/1-SPOOL-BRAND-DA-VALVE-W-FLOW-REG-SDCF755TM184LF1-9-5174.axd
Notice how it mentions flow and speed control. I have no idea if this one would actually be sized right for your pump. You want to match flow and pressure rating of pump and valve pretty close I would think. Hopefully you can go smaller to save $$.

A valve like this will allow you to barely pull the handle a little, and make your cylinder move very slowly. The more you pull the handle, the more flow you get, and the faster the ram travels.

The log splitter valves, I don't think do this. They are just open or closed, so you get pretty much full flow and one speed. Of course if your pump is slow enough, this will be fine. You might want to hook the pump up to the cylinder before you select a valve, so you know how fast it will travel loaded and unloaded.

That's cool...Im surprised I never heard of this style valve. Seems like everyone uses the simple log splitter style on bender mods which concerns me because on one of these hydro setups you can bend tube FAST to the point where it is hard to be precise with hitting the end point. I like this idea, might be worth the extra $. This didnt address my main concern -if this pump will push a cylinder both directions, but this valve is some good tech. Thanks!

KVINSON said:
That unit looks like a setup from a shop lift

Yes, it does. That would support the idea that the solenoid opens to allow back flow from cylinder closing with gravity/weight....

Hucklebuggy · Jan 21, 2015

As long as the port you have labeled "B" dumps straight back into the tank, then it should work fine. All you need the pump to do is provide pressure to the valve, and allow fluid to flow back to the tank through one of those ports. The separate control valve takes care of changing the direction of fluid flow to move the cylinder up or down.

DirtMonkey · Jan 21, 2015

Ok, I solved some mysteries today! I stopped by another hydraulic shop today and talked to a guy (old school who was very helpful) Imagine that! Anyway, even with part of the number rubbed off the plate of the pump, he was able to look up a data sheet for this unit. That solenoid actually acts as a directional valve. When engaged, it changes the flow direction. This could be cool because you could eliminate a valve altogether and just change direction bias on the cylinder...BUT, for bending tube, I think that would be a bad idea. I dont like the idea of having it instantly reverse as soon as I trigger it, at the stop point of a bend. If I just leave the solenoid alone and let it pump it will pump through a valve and do what I want, so this is good.

I just figured out the 115V/208,230 wiring for 115V and need to do a little test run and see which direction its pumping in default state. The 1/2"HP motor seemed a bit low initially, but the data sheet says its 2.3 GPM so that should work well. I just need to find a compatible valve and cylinder. Thinking a 3"x24" stroke. If anyone has any good experience with this combo I would love to hear your thoughts on that as well.

Thanks for the info :woot: