hydro help - bleeding

[Welderd]

Ok on my rear engine I'm having a hard time bleeding the hydro system

problem is I can't turn it left because the air bubbles to bleed the system.

I'm thinking my problem is that I have the orbital turned on it's side and any air will go into the line for turning left so anytime the pump gets air it pumps it back into the orbital and then to the left line.

I've been cracking fittings and making a mess but as soon as I turn the engine on air goes right back to that line. I'm ready for a test drive but can't steer!

 

[John Galbreath Jr.]

Raise tires off the ground, WITHOUT engine running. turn lock to lock 25 times, adding fluid as needed. Crank for 2 seconds, off, add fluid. Crank 5 seconds, off, add fluid. See where you are.

 

[Welderd]

can't turn left though due to all the air - I'll crack the lines till I can and then try that

 

[John Galbreath Jr.]

can't turn left though due to all the air - I'll crack the lines till I can and then try that

If you can't turn it with the engine off, check the lines. Sounds like you are not plumbed correctly.

 

[Welderd]

no dice so far


cracked the lines and got it as good as I could for left

it's 2 steps forward and one back going left - meaning I can turn the wheel 15 degrees and then it stops and wants to go right. I can turn left by turning a little, letting off then turning again.
I timed it

1 min 30 to go left with engine off
5seconds to go right with engine off

during the 25 turns lock to lock I had a funnel in the reservoir with a little fluid in it that I could see. It went up and down slightly but the level never went down.

FYI double ended ram, gm pump in psc can to an enlarged toyota reservoir, big cooler mounted to radiator, $50 forklift orbital that should give me 3 turns lock to lock, open center, non load reactive.

when turning left the wheel wants to go right like there's suction or something going on.


At what point do I give up and try another orbital?
the left and right lines are probably 10ft each
supply line is a good 10ft
return lines is closer to 15ft
reservoir is the highest point in the system and I sealed the cap but am bleeding with it off

I'm trying to be patient because of all the lines and ups and downs in them but it's been 2 days of this and it's not getting better even slightly.

I'm gonna change left and right now and see if it's hard to go right
also i disconnected the tires from the ram so it's just the ram right now, no resistance

 

[Welderd]

put 2 gal. of fluid on the floor
new orbital
same result

 

[Welderd]

It's like it's hitting a wall when turning left!!!


with the engine running it just bypasses like it does when the ram maxes out.



Oh and it shouldn't ever rust since i pulled the return line off while running to check if it was clogged --- Nope but I'm glad I spent 3days painting this thing only to shower it with ATF which BTW is just as bad on paint as brake fluid

 

[Welderd]

sitting here staring at it isn't helping I R dumb and have to be missing something simple


time for some inspiration

 

[87yjtoy]

Still sounds like it is not plumed correctly. Have you changed the hoses at the cylinder? any change? Where does the return from the orbital go. back into the pump can or the resivoir? It's only hydraulics not rocket science you can do this.

 

[John Galbreath Jr.]

Howeplumbing diagram

http://www.howeperformance.com/pdfs/rockcrawler%20hose%20diag.pdf

 

[Welderd]

Update: Working on it all day - no change


had a very helpful call with howe and he suggested turning my ram up so the fittings are the highest point. I looked at the ram and one side was higher than another. Romeved ram from mounting, prefilled it, gravity bleed it. Seemed reasonable that I was fighting a bubble on one side of the ram. Didn't work!

so I switched the lines at the orbital so that "bubble" would be on the other side, so it would should be fighting it right. NOPE still won't go left????????? ?WTF?

so do I have 2 identical BAD orbitals? what are the chances of that?
Or is the orbital not designed for this? It's off a forklift that steers left and right.

 

[Welderd]

This is upsetting

But this keeps me calm

We're gonna take Erin's orbital that worked on his Jeep and put it on tomorrow.
Anyone got an orbital laying around?
If it works I need to get another orbital
If it doesn't work - I give up\

 

[rock mafia]

You know anything about the orbital? I've tried several, but running them on my buggy to see what they do, and had them do some strange things. New ram? Surplus center? ever had it work right?

Another local shop had a similar problem on a new buggy, turned out to be the pump. It worked fine before, and was fairly new, but would not turn in one direction.

Bleeding is not the problem. Bleeding a hydro steering system is not all that involved, I've never had to do a 10th of the stuff you've tried (sorry, not trying to rub it in). Having the orbital on it's side is fine too, I have mounted at least 5 that way.

 

[InDaShop]

I am no pro at hydro, but I worked for a summer plumbing huge systems, 1000hp tubgrinders on 18 wheeler trailers for Toro's Recycling Equipment Division.

Double ended ram, correct? Do you know that it works? Spin that bitch around. You know the lines going into the left side will make it turn right, right? plumb those to the left and retry. (I'll bet you've done this already but....)
My only though it the ram is jammed in the cylinder somehow. Burr, bad seal, out of round, fitting not fully tapped???

 

[techtafab]

from looking at your pic i would say the line close to the yellow con. in power in right ?
and right under that is return right ?
from looking at one of my Hyster books the top 2 ports should be in and out and the bottom should be right/left
i am saying top/bottom from your pic like if it was a clock it would be 11 oclock power 1 oclock outlet
then 7 and 5 would be right/left
is that how yours is marked ??
mine is from a nissan buy that is how mine is plumed (and i never cracked a line to bleed anything,works great)
i have a spare if you need one

 

[Welderd]

surplus center ram - works fine both ways if I switch the lines

pump is new from vatozone

OK this might be a little hard to describe but here's my best attempt

when turning right - fluid from the left line goes to the tank just fine
when turning left - fluid from the right line pressurizes the power in line and makes the pump go to bypass (engine on or off) we can here it click over in the pump. It won't go thru to the return line?

since I have 2 ---- I took one apart
The power in and return to tank are connected straight thru with nothing to regulate it but a roll pin looking thing floating around between the 2 as if to restrict flow to tank and build pressure in orbital.

 

[rocfun]

i had similar problems when i re-did my steering. it looks like we have a similar setup , same ram / pump/ etc.
i changed everything as well on mine and went through about 5 gal of fluid as well. mine would turn great to the right but when you tried to turn left it would not turn or it would turn itself back to the right. i checked with a friend who works at a local hydraulic shop and he told me that the orbital was not aligned or sycronized (sorry can't remember the exact term)
i know i had never heard of this but, if it is not assembled correctly it can make the orbital act like a pump intead of a valve directing the flow. i took it to him and and they had it back to me the next day.
everyone i talked to had never heard of it and the orbital i had was brand new in the box, he said it is rare but if they are taken apart and not put back exactly right this can happen. and in my case it came this way from the factory.
but on a good note if this is your problem once i got it back put it on 5 turns left 5 to the right and i have been driving ever since no problems at all.
this may or may not be your problem but i thought i would through it out there. hope it helps

 

[Welderd]

talked with charlynn

sounds like I'm missing parts inside the orbital - on both??

The pump and tank lines are connected - there's supposed to be a check valve in there. there wasn't in the one I took apart

So the dilema now is to repair these 2 or get a new one?
I'd like to repair them but time is the problem, we'll see

 

[Willymutt]

I would just like to note that I still can smell tranny fluid on my hands and my skin is all shiny! I hope mine fixes the problem and we can finally drive this thing. I'm starting to pull my hair out on it.

 

[Welderd]

It'll keep your coat shiny laughing1