Spinoff: Fab shop welder qualifications

[Joc]

Ill say this first off just to clear up any confusion about my qualifications for welding. I am by no means a certified welder but have worked with steel and welded for 8 years before I moved on to a different job. When I laid down my first bead my boss said it was better than 90% of other welders working there. It just came natural to me. Over the years I got pretty damn good at it BUT I am not a pro nor claim to be. I know a good weld when I see it and not all pretty welds hold as good as they look.

Anyways history class over..
As long as I've been in this hobby I have seen some pretty amazing welds(if thats what you want to call some of them). I realize alot of these rigs are built by regular joes in the shops on small incomes one piece at a time. So when I do see some sketchy weld or fab work I first take into consideration is it back yard fab or big name shop. We all see these rigs get sold traded etc but does anyone ever think about there own personal build being used by someone else down the road. Are you confident in YOUR work/welds that you would risk someones life in it other than your own?

Example...
In my early 20s when I was a welder I "bagged" my own s10 which involved alot of torch use and welding. That was MY truck and though I was not a pro at welding I had confidence in my own work b/c it was MY life on the line as it was my daily driver. Well now a buddy wants me to do his and I stressed the point of my welds/ my life vs my weld/his life bc even though I knew I could do it I just never had a good feeling knowing my work could cost him his life if something broke going 80 down the road. Well I agreed and that day we did his truck and the front of another buddy of ours truck. Over the years I never heard of any problems thank God. To this day I'd probably turn down obscene amount of money to finish weld a buggy.

Main point of all this...
Do all these big name builders have the right qualifications to be placing other lives in there hands?
Do they only hire certified welders?
Do they hire someone that can weld good but dont have papers saying they are good as they are?
Do they hire average joe that the only welding they done was in the garage when they needed to make a small repair to something?
Do they look for x amount of years experience?

I'd like to know what shops hold what standard when it comes to who they let weld. Maybe employees or shop owners can chime in. I also realize you dont have to be certified to be good at it. And some that are certified probably shouldnt have the papers saying they are.

Am I the only one that looks at it from this side the fence?? I dont think I'd ever be able to afford to hire a shop to build me a turn key buggy but if I did this would be a top priority when it comes down to who they let weld on my rig.

 

[TBItoy]

Re:

Biggest thing I notice on most build pics is that most people weld roll cage tubing way too hot and big.

And when you see cage failures, everyone says "oh the welds held, the tubing failed!"... Well that's because the damn HAZ was 2" on both sides of the weld...

It doesn't take much to hold 1/8 and 3/16 tube together. Consider there is ~6" of weld around every joint....

 

[jccarter1]

I will say this just bc someone has a sheet of paper that says they are a certified welder just means they can weld the basic types of joints that they are tested on so I wouldn't put to much emphasis on the certification I am not certified in welding but I have done a lot of it and I make sure I test all of my welds bc if a cage/buggy doesn't have any dented tube it isn't being used correctly

 

[al1tonyota]

I weld all the time I'm pretty good at it now thinking about building some chassis soon!

 

[sledneck]

^ **** looks good... I doubt any of these shops are hiring real certified welders. By real I mean AWS certified not some bs shop cert that doesn't mean ****. Maybe some west coast shops that build trophy trucks etc. Are stepping up to pay for some real talent but I don't think I have ever heard of a shop in the mid west or east paying up. If WOD wants to pay me $35 a hour I will be there this weekend.

 

[TBItoy]

^ **** looks good... I doubt any of these shops are hiring real certified welders. By real I mean AWS certified not some bs shop cert that doesn't mean ****. Maybe some west coast shops that build trophy trucks etc. Are stepping up to pay for some real talent but I don't think I have ever heard of a shop in the mid west or east paying up. If WOD wants to pay me $35 a hour I will be there this weekend.

They don't, and won't. Mainly because it's not needed.

A lot of industry has self imposed regulations and regulatory statutes in place to protect people, and to defer liability. Building race cars and recreational vehicles isnt an industry where it has been deemed necessary by the businesses or the general public.

Does AWS certify roll cage chassis welding?

 

[e4cutler]

Are you confident in YOUR work/welds that you would risk someones life in it other than your own?

Am I the only one that looks at it from this side the fence?? I don't think I'd ever be able to afford to hire a shop to build me a turn key buggy but if I did this would be a top priority when it comes down to who they let weld on my rig.

I look at it pretty much in the same light you do as far as my welds on my stuff versus others. I don't have the 8 years experience though either. My experience is just from doing fixes or small BBQ pit builds. I'll weld on my own rig but I'm always hesitant to weld on a buddies.

 

[5BrothersFabrication]

In my experience, you come in, interview (tell about how you built Shannon Campbells last KOH winning buggy ), and take a welding test, usually with something relevant to the job. Either you can do it or you can't.

 

[mac5005]

The correct term for a person to weld a certain joint, with a specific process in a certain position is "qualified" not certified.

That I am aware of, there are no AWS qualifications for welding structural mild steel and chromoly tubing for use in automotive structures.

A few years ago, AWS had a press release that they were going to release a publication and specs on how to test and inspect this exact weld, but I have not seen or heard that it has been published yet.

With that covered, in my professional opinion, a welder that is qualified to weld plate in all positions with short circuit GMAW, and pipe in 6G position would be more than capable.

There is more to passing a qualification test than making the weld.

You have to prepare the groove correctly, assemble and tack the plates or pipe correctly, make the welds without exceeding a specific interpass temperature in the HAZ.

The weld has to meet visual acceptance criteria before it is either cut into strips called coupons, polished out and bent, or X-rayed.

Any error in making the weld WILL show up in a destructive bend test especially with short circuit GMAW.

Any error in the preparation, fabrication, weld, and cutting, grinding and polishing of the weld test will result in a failure. All aspects must be done correctly and per instruction to pass the qualification test.

The biggest problem with mig, is that the top face of the weld may look ok, with desirable weave, or circular puddle manipulation, but the underside, the root of the weld will be cold with very little fusion at the base of the joint.

This typically comes from the mentality of
" just turn the machine up, and burn it in".

This does not work or apply to short circuit mig welding. The mig arc does not have the arc force like stick or tig welding, and then the puddle builds outward.

The puddle itself insulates the arc from every reaching the base metal.

I have seen hundreds, if not thousands, of mig welds that looked good enough to meet the visual acceptance criteria to fail tremendously during the bend.

The key to making a competent short circuit gmaw weld is to keep the arc on the very front edge of the puddle in order to keep the bottom "root" of the puddle from becoming cold. Do not let the weld "build up", or hold the arc in the same spot, hoping to "burn in".


I do not know the hiring practices of the big shops or the qualifications of the big names or individuals building buggies and cages for sale.

An easy test for someone to ask for, if they are purchasing work from someone for a roll cage, tube chassis etc, is for the builder to take some scrap pieces of tube, cope one at 45 degrees, and weld it single pass.

Take this and smash it with a big sledge hammer trying to break the coped piece off. This is by no means a qualification or an official test of a weld, but is a good indication of the weld.

If a bench made weld on scrap tube breaks, the welds made out of position on that cage, in a tight joint, will be worse.

The weld should not break itself, it should tear the tubing where the weld meets the tube.

If the tube tears at the edge of the heat affected zone, an inch or so beside the weld, too much heat was put into that joint at once.

Or just post the resulting pics of destroyed weld and let Hardline decide.


A couple very generic rules:

If you see tack - tack - tack or trigger welding on anything other than cosmetic sheet metal, run!!!

If you see deep grooves on either side of the weld bead where the bead meets the tubing, go somewhere else.

If a 1" wide weave is on a 1.75" tube joint, go somewhere else.

Other notes, if you are working on your own vehicle, doing fab work and come across something you don't feel comfortable welding, DONT weld it.

Tack it in place to hold it, and go ask a friend that is a qualified welder to come weld it. Might cost you a few bucks, or case of beer, bottle of booze, or some fab work in trade.

It's far better to have someone who is confident and capable in their welding to make those welds.

If you don't know or have a buddy that welds professionally, go down to your local community college and ask around who has what qualifications and wants to do some real welding.

I'll bet you can find some guys/girls that need beer/gas money or that are willing to weld that up for cheap/free/trade. It's much easier to accomplish this, if you are set up with a welder ready to go and everything cleaned, rust and paint free, tacked up and ready to weld.

All someone has to do is show up and weld it all.

 

[sledneck]

They don't, and won't. Mainly because it's not needed.

Could the argument be made that if you want the best you have to pay for the best? In a shops case they have to pay for the best help or are there that many "welders" out there that will go to work for $12 a hour?

 

[e4cutler]

Could the argument be made that if you want the best you have to pay for the best? In a shops case they have to pay for the best help or are there that many "welders" out there that will go to work for $12 a hour?

Friend of mine owns a trailer repair shop outside of Houston and this is an issue he's been trying to find a solution to for a couple of years. His welder quit and he can't find a good qualified welder that's willing to work for what he can afford to pay. The oil and gas industry along with other industries are paying their welders so much he just can't compete. It's a rock and hard place situation because you can't hire just anyone because quality matters but you can't afford to compete with large corporations.

 

[mac5005]

Could the argument be made that if you want the best you have to pay for the best? In a shops case they have to pay for the best help or are there that many "welders" out there that will go to work for $12 a hour?

The problem is not the oil and gas industry paying welders too much, it's every other company only wanting to pay $12/hr to someone and asking them to do $19/hr work.

There are plenty of competent welders out there that will accept jobs fresh out of college with AWS qualifications, for $13/hour with benefits. But the only experience they can present on a resume is school shop time.

These are the guys you want to hire, being that they have had their welds tested recently, and have had a great amount of time behind the shield very recently. Definitely a better quality than someone who has been welding for 10+ years with no official training.

If you want a welder with some experience, qualifications, and can fabricate unsupervised, $17-$22 / hour starting pay.

If you want a welder that knows codes, can fabricate well, has experience, has tools, can operate plasma table, bend tech, and know proper design for tube work and suspensions, break out your wallet.

I feel like some shop owners want/need $22-$25/ hour welders but are only willing to pay $13/hr.

This is where consumers see the quality difference, and choose to pay for quality.

Just my .02.

 

[yankster]

To properly qualify a welder to weld a specific material you first have to qualify a welding procedure based on a specific code or standard and prove that a certain filler material, amperage, voltage, wire feed speed and travel speed will provide a weld that is equal to or stronger than the base metal. Procedure qualification can get very expensive and time consuming if you using a lab to verify results and paying an expensive welder to make up these coupons. All procedure qualifications require destructive testing to verify results, which mean tensile pulls, charpy v-notch testing, etc.
And once a welder is qualified to weld 1.5" 0.120" wt. tubing to another identical piece, he wouldn't necessarily be qualified to weld plate gussets to the same tubing or another plate. Therefore you would have to qualify another procedure and start all over. In addition, a standard would have to be created and followed to requalify each welder on every procedure on a regular basis; most companies requalify with non-destructive means (x-ray, radiograph, etc.) every six months and then will make the welder destructively test every year. Then if he wants to break out the TIG and weld aluminum or steel you have to start the process all over again. 6061 would be one procedure, 5052 would be another, each stainless grade would each require a procedure, and every type of carbon steel. It gets very complicated. This is what I do 11 hours a day, six days a week.

 

[TBItoy]

Re: Re: Spinoff: Fab shop welder qualifications

Could the argument be made that if you want the best you have to pay for the best? In a shops case they have to pay for the best help or are there that many "welders" out there that will go to work for $12 a hour?

By all means, if someone feels they need a certified with papers welder to weld up a chassis, then they should pay for it.

Since $35/hr was mentioned, I would guarantee that no fabricator in the south east is making that hourly rate straight time. Maybe after bonuses, insurance, and averaging out overtime pay it would work out to $35/hr.

I would be VERY surprised if even the shop OWNERS were paying themselves that much on an hourly basis.

 

[yankster]

By all means, if someone feels they need a certified with papers welder to weld up a chassis, then they should pay for it.

Since $35/hr was mentioned, I would guarantee that no fabricator in the south east is making that hourly rate straight time. Maybe after bonuses, insurance, and averaging out overtime pay it would work out to $35/hr.

I would be VERY surprised if even the shop OWNERS were paying themselves that much on an hourly basis.

From what I'm hearing $22-$25 is pretty common for a proven welder/fabricator.
As far as oil-natural gas field the welders are making $45+ per hour plus more if they weld off their own rigs. But they are held to a much higher standard, meaning if they don't perform to my and the codes standards I send them packing, even if they passed their tests and have been doing it 30 years.

 

[TBItoy]

Re: Re: Spinoff: Fab shop welder qualifications

From what I'm hearing $22-$25 is pretty common for a proven welder/fabricator.

Yep. Proven is a key word there. You won't walk into a fab shop around here (no matter what the shop builds) and make $22-25/hr without some sort of portfolio/proof of what you are capable of, or previous employers to vouche for you.

 

[bad80cj]

What do yall think of this


- Piper

Porosity left weld

 

[Rockwells607]

I have a certified welder weld my chassis selfless plug for yankster . I weld most all of my own stuff and it looks and works pretty well, but when yankster lays a bead with my own welder it makes mine look like ****

 

[sledneck]

Is he a certified welder or a certified inspector or just certifiable? ;D

 

[5BrothersFabrication]

Taking knowledge from my last fab job, I'm going to create a little gizmo with a few 2-3" tubes sticking this way and that and a couple flat plates with T-joint, butt joint, and lap joints all welded up purty, slap it on the desk and ask what they'll give me. My last job I walked in at $17, maybe a little proof can get me more?