Ok so one thing everyone talks about is the need for more tech and I am in need of some help for info. I want to hear from people who have real world experience with these not just what you read on pirate one time. I understand that this will be opinions but I really want to get this put together and i dont know much about toyota stuff. Questions that i have are what is the strongest thrid member, what is the best locker that would help limit deflection, best gear set also best way to setup gears, are 4.10 that much stronger than 5.29,is it worth getting gears cryo treatment and where do you have it done and lastly I am asking this bc I need to run a hp thrid in the rear of a single seat 4 wheel steer buggy and need the high pinion for driveshaft clearance it is a low hp transaxle build that is light weight and 37 reds
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Toyota thrid member info
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clemsonjeep
Well-Known Member
I'd say strongest 8" diff would be the TRD elocker. I'm basing this off it being a V6 diff and since it's the elocker the side bearings are HUGE which helps strength. Next in line would be a V6 diff with an ARB. This would give you the stronger diff, gear set, and strongest locker by far that also provides the most reduction in gear deflection.
As far as cryo treatment goes...I had Bobby long treat my 5.29's when I first put them together and have not had a single issue (elocker rear and high pinion front). I set my gears up deep and tight...I've had the front and rear out a few times over the years for maintenance and there is no obvious wear. When I first built mine it was on 37" ssr's for 4-5 years then went to 39.5" iroks for 3yrs and I've bee. On 39" reds since then.
As far as brands go my experience is limited...I've had the cryo treated trail gear trail creeper gears...and never had a problem.
I think a high pinion in the rear with cryo treated 5.29's would be fine...of course it goes without saying you'd have to drive with a tad of common sense.
As far as cryo treatment goes...I had Bobby long treat my 5.29's when I first put them together and have not had a single issue (elocker rear and high pinion front). I set my gears up deep and tight...I've had the front and rear out a few times over the years for maintenance and there is no obvious wear. When I first built mine it was on 37" ssr's for 4-5 years then went to 39.5" iroks for 3yrs and I've bee. On 39" reds since then.
As far as brands go my experience is limited...I've had the cryo treated trail gear trail creeper gears...and never had a problem.
I think a high pinion in the rear with cryo treated 5.29's would be fine...of course it goes without saying you'd have to drive with a tad of common sense.
Since your rig uses a Honda engine reversed, I'm not sure exactly what direction the gears would be rotating.
I can tell you a friend of mine in France has tried running the nicest 4.10 HP gears we could find, with the bigger 29sp pinion. Even after sending them to RCV for Cryo, they didn't hold up for **** in the rear.
Finally went to a LP and that solved the problem for about 1 year before **** broke twice in a time frame short enough for the owner to say **** it and put Nissan Patrol axles under his rig.
No more issues.
I would definitely try to run the HP in the front and LP rear (with a normal rotation direction) and I believe the strongest gears available would be the Nitro with 29sp pinion. Send them to RCV for cryo, it works. V6 third member has the bigger bearings and we used a spool front and rear with no issues. I also believe the 4.10 vs 5.29 has a strength difference in favor of the 4.10. Theoretically it shouldn't but I'm doubtful.
I can tell you a friend of mine in France has tried running the nicest 4.10 HP gears we could find, with the bigger 29sp pinion. Even after sending them to RCV for Cryo, they didn't hold up for **** in the rear.
Finally went to a LP and that solved the problem for about 1 year before **** broke twice in a time frame short enough for the owner to say **** it and put Nissan Patrol axles under his rig.
No more issues.
I would definitely try to run the HP in the front and LP rear (with a normal rotation direction) and I believe the strongest gears available would be the Nitro with 29sp pinion. Send them to RCV for cryo, it works. V6 third member has the bigger bearings and we used a spool front and rear with no issues. I also believe the 4.10 vs 5.29 has a strength difference in favor of the 4.10. Theoretically it shouldn't but I'm doubtful.
TBItoy
Well-Known Member
a HP diff is essentially a "V6" diff, it uses the bigger bearings.
I don' think 4.10s are significantly stronger than 5.29s.
I think that most 5.29s have a worse reputation because they are installed imperfectly, not broken in properly (especially considering most stock 4.10s have 100K+ miles on them), and most people buy the cheapest gears they can find. Also people assume that because they had a "shop" install them, that they are built correctly, which I don't think is the norm (especially 10+ years ago when these reputations were formed)
Do you need 5.29 gears?
ARB is probably the "best" to limit deflection. ARB would probably be nice in the back of a little moonbuggy.
Other than that, I'd just run a welded up stock diff, pretty much impossible to bust one if you weld it up right. I've had a spool bend and be ruined after breaking a set of gears (spool weakness may have contributed to gears breaking?)
Set it up with a good pattern on the tight side, solid pinion spacer, LOTS of carrier bearing preload, keep it full of heavy weight (like 250) gear oil, and it should live a happy life (if you mostly just crawl around with it)
Does your transaxle buggy not run the diffs flipped?
Are you going to run a HP 3rd flipped to put the pinion down low?
???
unless you are commited to the toyota axles, I'd just run a welded up stock 4.10 for starters (with the bearings set up tight). That will give you a good metric of whether or not it will hold up for you. If it busts WAY easier than you think it should, then you might start looking elsewere.
I don' think 4.10s are significantly stronger than 5.29s.
I think that most 5.29s have a worse reputation because they are installed imperfectly, not broken in properly (especially considering most stock 4.10s have 100K+ miles on them), and most people buy the cheapest gears they can find. Also people assume that because they had a "shop" install them, that they are built correctly, which I don't think is the norm (especially 10+ years ago when these reputations were formed)
Do you need 5.29 gears?
ARB is probably the "best" to limit deflection. ARB would probably be nice in the back of a little moonbuggy.
Other than that, I'd just run a welded up stock diff, pretty much impossible to bust one if you weld it up right. I've had a spool bend and be ruined after breaking a set of gears (spool weakness may have contributed to gears breaking?)
Set it up with a good pattern on the tight side, solid pinion spacer, LOTS of carrier bearing preload, keep it full of heavy weight (like 250) gear oil, and it should live a happy life (if you mostly just crawl around with it)
Does your transaxle buggy not run the diffs flipped?
Are you going to run a HP 3rd flipped to put the pinion down low?
???
unless you are commited to the toyota axles, I'd just run a welded up stock 4.10 for starters (with the bearings set up tight). That will give you a good metric of whether or not it will hold up for you. If it busts WAY easier than you think it should, then you might start looking elsewere.
I not quite sure how the rotation of the Honda motor and it being a transaxle buggy affects the side of the gear it will run on it is a stock axle with the axle flipped for the rear I just need the diff in a hp configuration bc of driveline clearance. Can you run a stock third flipped
leeadam94
Well-Known Member
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These particular Honda setups we are running turn just like a traditional front engine rig. Any normal diff will work properly. No need for flipping for correct rotation. As for clearance in the rear, a HP would be nice. Having said that, a HP diff is always weaker running in reverse,(like used for a rear end). With my experience on my Toyota stuff, maintenance is key! Always check diffs for working loose. Never have I had a gear failure from strength issues. Always loose bolts or gear preload working loose. Toyota is strong but much keep a check on things for them to last. I replace gear about once a year or so just for safety. They do get weak from the beating I give them.jccarter1 said:
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TBItoy
Well-Known Member
jccarter1 said:
Well if your diffs are flipped, then a flipped high pinion puts the pinion down low...
And yeah you can flip the diffs in the housing however you want, but its sorta important which way is forward or reverse.
Sounds like your setup has the diffs the correct way though according to leeadam.
untchabl
On the Rocks
In my Honda transaxle buggy the gears ran the normal direction since it was rear engine because the Honda engine spins counter clockwise. I chipped a couple teeth off the ring gear on a LP v6 diff in the rear with 37" Trep stickies. But it had a lunchbox locker and it stopped ratcheting properly so I believe that was the cause of the ring gear failure. I switched to a spool and had ECGS set it up since they warranty their 3rds for 5 years.
billstoy
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I love this sport you can try anything you want !! I've talked about this buggy. I understand the short drive line issue. First the facts. Toyota designed the high pinion to be 25% stronger when running the proper direction in a front application . Running it backward in the rear will make the setup 25% weaker than a low pinion. yes you can offset this some with a lower deflecting carrier or name brand spool.
On the gear choice, as said above setup is important. The facts again tooth count pinion size . look at a 529 pinion vs a 411 pinion and ring gear. Put it together look at the contact area .. a 411 will have twice the contact patch. more tooth total contact area. 529 will have a much smaller contact area. this equals twice the pounds per inch on the contact area . This will break up to 50 % easer, Again I agree with above. Cryoed and better quality materials will offset this some . Some may not agree with me! ok! Some thing I have heard and never tried.. How about a low pinion point the pinion at the t-case and run a double cardon joint .
I may not like this route But would that work/help in your situation?
On the gear choice, as said above setup is important. The facts again tooth count pinion size . look at a 529 pinion vs a 411 pinion and ring gear. Put it together look at the contact area .. a 411 will have twice the contact patch. more tooth total contact area. 529 will have a much smaller contact area. this equals twice the pounds per inch on the contact area . This will break up to 50 % easer, Again I agree with above. Cryoed and better quality materials will offset this some . Some may not agree with me! ok! Some thing I have heard and never tried.. How about a low pinion point the pinion at the t-case and run a double cardon joint .
I may not like this route But would that work/help in your situation?
Bill I do agree with most of that and I completely understand that this might not be the strongest way to run one but I am asking t hi is for two reasons one bc I want to know who has run one this way and second if I do run it like this what would be best setup be to try to make it last. I can't really change the the pinion angle with out completely reworking the suspension mounts and links so this is the easiest fix I see at the moment. I understand completely that lower ratio means better contact but if the carrier deflection is what is cause the gear to chip or break the contact wont mean as much. And as for running a high pinion in the rear would that not be the same as running a low pinion in the front. Both ways the gear is on the coast side which is more prone to gear deflection.
TBItoy
Well-Known Member
jccarter1 said:
Yes.
only "difference" is when you're putting stress on the diffs, the rig is usually climbing so more weight is on the rear axle.
When I (and the other toyota guys I bulit/rode with) went to high pinion front diffs, it solved our front diff breakage issues in the rigs that we had.
I built 3 high pinion diffs for our rigs, all were stock 4.10 gears, stock old bearings, solid pinion shim/spacer, and 4 pinion V6 carriers with lunchbox lockers (1 spartan, 1 lockright, 1 aussie)
billstoy
Well-Known Member
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when the high pinion was designed it was for the front only, They used the 9 1/2 in the rear. The design of moving to high pinion was not for clearance. It was moved to rotate proper for front use.. It made the application stronger.. Not the same as a low pinion in the front. The design would actually make it weaker than a low pinion in the rear by a equal percent about 25% stronger in the front but when moved to a rear would be equally weaker by the same 25% .. It is just not designed for rear app. . I'm Toyota all the way.. I love that you want to do it .. I'm never being a jerk. I'm just trying to help . It can be done, yes it can be built properly and upgraded, no it will never match the strength of the same materials in a low pinion rear . It is just by design. and a gain of only 1 1/2" , To most people it would not be worth it, But Do try it. It may work for a light weight buggy.. I'm not going to be the same as the jeep guy,, laughed at my single seater and said " That will never work" Ha, Ha, .. That was the week after I won the first 4 cyl. race. I don't want to be that guy.. I support our sport , and you. I will help . Some times you got to do it ! Nike " Just Do It !" Or " Sent It " Either way if you need any thing let me know.
