I know this story very well. I was there for that.
Made for a very long night. We warned all of them about the trail and they still followed along. All the rigs that helped getting them out had damage.
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Help Support Hardline Crawlers :
Width Restrictions
- Thread starter Wildman1
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I know this story very well. I was there for that.
Made for a very long night. We warned all of them about the trail and they still followed along. All the rigs that helped getting them out had damage.
I think I see the part that you disagreed with, the section about a rig with 44" tires on the Gotcha. Rephrased, if you will, a rig with 44" tires probably won't WANT to run the gotcha if they knew how easy it was for them and had choices for trails that are more geared to their vehicle. We all know people who have found alternate lines that are more interesting on easy trails. There's spots on the Sunrise that we saw while building some water bars, where someone had driven off the trail for the pure purpose of driving through the ditch because that section of trail was boring. I bet most of us have done it, not just seen or heard of it....
I dont think the rigs that are equipped to run the hard trails should be left out and not able to run the easy. It should be the smaller unequipped should have the restrictions. I have a buddy that wheels elbe almost every weekend and he is running fullsize running gear and a v8 in his jeep and he runs the easy trails there and that is all. He has a bad leg and chooses not to run the hard stuff because he cant walk around in the ruts and mud. So because his rig is to wide and to big of tires you will make him wheel the hard stuff?
I dont think the rigs that are equipped to run the hard trails should be left out and not able to run the easy. It should be the smaller unequipped should have the restrictions. I have a buddy that wheels elbe almost every weekend and he is running fullsize running gear and a v8 in his jeep and he runs the easy trails there and that is all. He has a bad leg and chooses not to run the hard stuff because he cant walk around in the ruts and mud. So because his rig is to wide and to big of tires you will make him wheel the hard stuff?
No, that's not what we're talking about Brian. There will be nothing preventing him from running any trail he chooses. He'll just know what the trails will be like and will be able to make appropriate choices. But take a group of guys that say are using to running the hard stuff a Reiter and they venture south to Elbe where they're not familiar with the trails. So, the run Sunrise, pick up the mainline, end up on Gothcha and by now their bored so they start playing around to find something fun todo. A couple of mud holes just off the trail get explored, 2wd rooster tail sound like fun now... We all know that it happens. So if they have a good map, good signage and some ratings with vehicle recommendations, they can make the right choices and spend their time on the trails where they'll have the most fun based on who's in their group, what they are and are not capable of, and what they do or do not want to attempt.
The Rainier Vista is going to have a gatekeeper obstacle in addition to signage. It'll look more like a blocked trail to those not built to handle it
Your buddy would have absolutely no restrictions on what he can or cannot wheel.
In fairness to all wheelers we don't want the easy trails to turn into the busy. We want to keep a nice mix of difficulty levels.
width restrictions, tire restictions, fines for breaking rules. BS
Put up a sign at the beginning and ending of a trail telling people what lies ahead and be done with it. If theyr'e a moron enough to not see a sign and make a good judgement about whether going or not then let them beat the crap out of their rig, and the next maybe they will think about it.
It doesn't matter how well a vehicle is equiped or not equiped its the judgement of a few idiots that bring all these bypass issues up. I've only been to elbe a handful of times and it was apparent that people just don't give a rip about making new bypasses. We were on swamp trail and the lead rig was having running issues then the winch line broke so they were re braiding the line when 2 (assuming locals) fully exo'd and locked Yota's 1 with 38's and the other with 39's got too impatient (after waiting for 4 minutes)and decided to make a bypass around us when there was no trail or tire tracks. They then proceeded to do rear only burns through the mud pit at the end and tear up the main part of the trail that we needed to go through just to be an ass.
The only reason I bring that story up is someone commented on the "less equiped" rigs making bypasses, I thought was wrong.
No matter what decisions come about threads like this, not everyone who wheels the local trails around here is on any of the forums, or if they are probably won't read these anyways.
Bottom line is your still gonna have idiots try the harder trails with less equiped rigs, and your still gonna have idiots with well equiped rigs making the easy trails harder.
2 things to do.
1. Trail clean ups/ work parties
2. PUT UP SIGNS WARNING THEM, AND AFTER THEY SCREW UP SAY DIDN'T YOU SEE THE SIGN?
Thats all that you can do aside from supporting a change in the federal and state forestry rules, because right now we are just conforming to the rules instead of lobbying to get them changed to less restrictive guidelines.
Put up a sign at the beginning and ending of a trail telling people what lies ahead and be done with it. If theyr'e a moron enough to not see a sign and make a good judgement about whether going or not then let them beat the crap out of their rig, and the next maybe they will think about it.
It doesn't matter how well a vehicle is equiped or not equiped its the judgement of a few idiots that bring all these bypass issues up. I've only been to elbe a handful of times and it was apparent that people just don't give a rip about making new bypasses. We were on swamp trail and the lead rig was having running issues then the winch line broke so they were re braiding the line when 2 (assuming locals) fully exo'd and locked Yota's 1 with 38's and the other with 39's got too impatient (after waiting for 4 minutes)and decided to make a bypass around us when there was no trail or tire tracks. They then proceeded to do rear only burns through the mud pit at the end and tear up the main part of the trail that we needed to go through just to be an ass.
The only reason I bring that story up is someone commented on the "less equiped" rigs making bypasses, I thought was wrong.
No matter what decisions come about threads like this, not everyone who wheels the local trails around here is on any of the forums, or if they are probably won't read these anyways.
Bottom line is your still gonna have idiots try the harder trails with less equiped rigs, and your still gonna have idiots with well equiped rigs making the easy trails harder.
2 things to do.
1. Trail clean ups/ work parties
2. PUT UP SIGNS WARNING THEM, AND AFTER THEY SCREW UP SAY DIDN'T YOU SEE THE SIGN?
Thats all that you can do aside from supporting a change in the federal and state forestry rules, because right now we are just conforming to the rules instead of lobbying to get them changed to less restrictive guidelines.
I agree with a part of what you're saying. But let's take the morons that do go in and not only beat the crap out of their rigs (which I really don't care a lot about) but supposed they tear up sections of the trail that now have to be repaired. Who should pay for the time and materials to repair the damage caused by the "morons" that ignored the signs?
The majority of bypasses on the hard trails everywhere are made by underprepared vehicles and drivers. I believe the majority of offshoots (not really bypasses) on easier trails about made by the better built vehicles looking for some excitement.
A lot of this is irrelevant until their are people on the trails to enforce the rules anyway. If there was someone avialable to enforce the simple rules on the trails we wouldn't have 90% of the problems. We're still stuck in the mode or repairing the damage by people that are for the most part, unseen and unknown to those that have the ability to do something about it.
TreeClimber
Well-Known Member
There's some great conversations goin' on here, but let's go back to the original topic.
Should there be Width Restrictions, and if so, how wide, and why?
Should the Width be an AXLE width? Or a Vehicle width?
Should there be Width Restrictions, and if so, how wide, and why?
Should the Width be an AXLE width? Or a Vehicle width?
No restrictions, run what ya brung,
Add signs warning of trail ahead.
I guess I did go off on a little tangent, coffe had not fully kicked in yet.
CHOP SHOP
Well-Known Member
like an under equiped suburban on the trails in elbe??
Something to think about...
If the result of the effort to keep a trail/area open is restrictions, that keep my Fullsize out I'll respect the letter of the restriction.
However my position will be one of zero effort/involvement on that trail/area, you may as well close it, won't make any difference to me will it...
IT IS ALREADY CLOSED TO ME!
Compromise if you will, or if you can...
I say the compromises have gone too far.
Oh, and this thread still cracks me up!:haha:
If the result of the effort to keep a trail/area open is restrictions, that keep my Fullsize out I'll respect the letter of the restriction.
However my position will be one of zero effort/involvement on that trail/area, you may as well close it, won't make any difference to me will it...
IT IS ALREADY CLOSED TO ME!
Compromise if you will, or if you can...
I say the compromises have gone too far.
Oh, and this thread still cracks me up!:haha:
Gibby said:
No, that's not what we're talking about Brian. There will be nothing preventing him from running any trail he chooses. He'll just know what the trails will be like and will be able to make appropriate choices. But take a group of guys that say are using to running the hard stuff a Reiter and they venture south to Elbe where they're not familiar with the trails. So, the run Sunrise, pick up the mainline, end up on Gothcha and by now their bored so they start playing around to find something fun todo. A couple of mud holes just off the trail get explored, 2wd rooster tail sound like fun now... We all know that it happens. So if they have a good map, good signage and some ratings with vehicle recommendations, they can make the right choices and spend their time on the trails where they'll have the most fun based on who's in their group, what they are and are not capable of, and what they do or do not want to attempt.
The Rainier Vista is going to have a gatekeeper obstacle in addition to signage. It'll look more like a blocked trail to those not built to handle it
Your buddy would have absolutely no restrictions on what he can or cannot wheel.
In fairness to all wheelers we don't want the easy trails to turn into the busy. We want to keep a nice mix of difficulty levels.
Isnt this kinda contradicting yourself?
Whether any of us admit it or not, this area ,east or west side, is not very full size friendly. I'm not stating a preference, just a fact. This area wasn't opened by big rigs but flatties. To try to force in a full size just because you have one it just not good for some of our trail systems.
Our rigs should be built for the trails, not the trails built for the rigs.
Lets look at this from a slightly different perspective, I went to Moab with my narrow track CJ-5. I found my short wheel base to be terrible on the steep ledges and had to be strapped many times to keep from going over backwards (or forwards). Other, longer rigs went right up or down without a strap. Should I bitch and complain to get the ledges cut so they work for my rig? Nope. Not all rigs work everywhere. We must build our rigs for the areas we wheel. Trees in the way? Build a smaller rig. 80" OS max.
Our rigs should be built for the trails, not the trails built for the rigs.
Lets look at this from a slightly different perspective, I went to Moab with my narrow track CJ-5. I found my short wheel base to be terrible on the steep ledges and had to be strapped many times to keep from going over backwards (or forwards). Other, longer rigs went right up or down without a strap. Should I bitch and complain to get the ledges cut so they work for my rig? Nope. Not all rigs work everywhere. We must build our rigs for the areas we wheel. Trees in the way? Build a smaller rig. 80" OS max.
It was equiped just fine for the trails that I ran, it took me twice as long as the yota, and sami guys I was with but I still managed 3 or 4 trails without rubbing a single tree, one of which trails I was towing a dead vehicle the entire way.:awesomework:
No. If a driver ignores the rules and as a result CAUSES trail damage, he can be fined.
How does or would this affect your buddies situation on running his hardcore rig on an easy trail?
If however, I bring my daily driver 4Runnner (we call it my little 4runner around the house) on the busy and I end up running up through the trees to find my way out of there or causing some of sort of issue, such as leaving on the side of the trail to be stripped before I get back to it... there should be repercussions. At least with proper signage I couldn't use the excuse that I didn't know what I was getting in to. So, if I chose to venture in anyway, I think I should be held accountable for the damage that I caused. If that means flying a helipcopter in to lift the carcass off the trail (just using an example here) then I would expect to be held financially liable for that expense.
TreeClimber
Well-Known Member
Well said, but let's take the next logical thought. Our fore-wheelers who had Jeeps (Willys) were wheeling in Willys because, quite candidly, there were no other alternatives. In the 50s, who made a 4x4 PU? Marman? Certainly not Ford and Chevy. And they certainly weren't plentiful. When did the Ford 4x4 become both plentiful and cheap?
We are forced into playing the hand we were dealt with NOW. Now, I'm definately NOT advocating full sizes for wheelers, but playing devil's advocate isn't all bad either.
So now, and old CJ is worth Kachang!, but an early 80s F150, or K-Blazer can be bought for $1500 - $2000. Why not rebuild all the trail systems (and the users will do it for free) into wide trails?
Do I think it will make my wheeling easier (and less fun)? Yes. Do I want this? NO. But why not?
Which would be better? Limiting someone from running a trail due to vehicle size -OR- making it easier on the more well prepared trail rigs (like mine)?
And what would the Enviro-Nazi's say, if we widened all of Kaner Flats Trail so that a Suburban could fit?
My answer to this is to have a variety of trails in an ORV area so that all wheelers have an opportunity to play, but not necessarily on every trail. In an ideal situation there would be trails ideal for little rigs, big rigs, built rigs, and not so built rigs. They would all be signed and rated so that you knew which trails were best suited for you and your rig. This way the little guy doesn't run the trail with the giant ruts and mud holes suitable for the big guys and the big rigs don't run tight trails built for the SWB Willys style vehicles. It's simply not possible to design individual trails that can meet everyone's needs. Although the use of legal bypasses around particularly difficult obstacles can allow lesser built vehicles to drive more trails while the built rigs get to play on the hard stuff as well.
CHOP SHOP
Well-Known Member
you guys were stuck in trucks not prepared.:looser: you refused help
. you were rude.:flipoff: you were undertired and on the deepest muddyest hole there.:looser: after waiting a half hour (not 4 minutes) you finnaly got out. then the next guy, in an undertired, unprepared truck charged the same hole in a smaller truck, what a suprise!!! stuck worse!!:fawkdancesmiley: :haha: maybe since you remember what our trucks look like, now you have an elbe building recipe!!:kissmyass: please go ahead with minumum requirements. may i ticket people like this if i see them on the worst trail in the worst trucks with no lockers and peewee tires ??:cheer:
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Some designated trails and maybe your favorite/local area, yes.
Most of the Oregon Coast Range and Cascades, etc (WA too!) were opened with a D8 or better. Often a Skidder choked!
Not a Flattie.
