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Torque vs. Horsepower
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<blockquote data-quote="Binder" data-source="post: 1344546" data-attributes="member: 16063"><p>OK this is a deap subject as you were all warned in the other thread.....First off we're doing this to compare tow rigs so first we should think about what we consider "better towing" Is it better acceleration ability? Is it being able to move a trailer from a dead stop? Is it ability to maintain a given speed on flat ground?...Up hill?....Down hill?......</p><p>In an earlier post the author wrote about something being more of a race engine and less of a towing engine. What to you is the difference? Yes a typical tow rig engine will last longer and/ or be more durable but for the sake of this thread say they were equal in this reguard....Now what's the difference? Say if a race car were the same weight as a tow rig and trailer combined whould the power then be measured differently?</p><p>Is torque needed? Yes it is! Above I asked what is a tow rig and one of the given definitions were ability to move a load from a stop. This action requires what is called beakaway torque. It takes a certain amount of torque <span style="color: Red">at the wheels</span> to make the wheels start to turn from a dead stop. Once the wheels begin to turn (like instantly) there is now HP which will determine how fast the wheel accelerates....Now this is where it gets confusing because we all know if you gear it lower you can accelerate faster. But gearing it lower only increases torque and not HP. The difference is the maximum speed reached will be less in a lower gear. The same work was done because the same weight was accelerated but quiker to a lower speed. HP is ability to do work and in this case work done.</p><p>Now continuing with why we need torque....We now have the wheels moving and driving down the road....There is still a minimum required torque at the wheels to keep them turning. It's a minimum requirement and as long as you have this minimum all is well...Now you come to a hill which gets steeper and steeper. As the hill gets steeper there is more torque required to keep the wheels turning. As the hill continues to get steeper at some point more torque will be required to turn the wheels than is at the wheels so you will have to downshift. This concept is the most "notable" need for torque in a tow rig. Torque at the wheels, not necessarily at the engine. Next is why but first one important thing is the fact that you can measure HP based on how heavy a vehicle is and how fast it accelerated. No torque numbers needed. This is a fact not a opinion, if you don't believe this then go look it up......</p><p>Now...gearing.....We all know or should know that gears multiply torque but not HP. We also know you must keep the engine RPMs in the engines power band. The argument is often whether that "power band" is the torque band or the HP band. Now above we learned that we need a minimum torque to turn the wheels but we can measure HP strictly based on acceleration. <span style="color: red">You can't measure torque based on acceleration!</span> Acceleration is a function of HP and HP only. Torque numbers here don't matter other than you met your requirement to turn the wheels. Yes the wheels are turning and that's all you need to know.</p><p>Another way to look at this concept is compare two tow rigs, one with way more torque than the other <span style="color: red">(tow rig #1)</span>but they have the same HP. Lets call this less powerful tow rig (tow rig #2). These two have the same gearing.... Now these two have a drag race and are dead even (I know what you're thinking, just listen for a minute). Tow rig number one thinks he should have won because of his superior torque at the engine and wants another race. Tow rig number two has a answer for that and he changes his gearing a bit lower so now he has the same torque at the wheels AND the same HP. Remember gears multiply torque not HP. They race again and now tow rig two looses. WTF they have the same torque at the wheels????? He lost because he didn't keep the engine in it's power band, it was reving past it's power band............</p><p>Yeah we can change these two make believe tow rigs around all day but think of it thois way. How much torque would tow rig one need to win the race? How much torque for tow rig two to win?....A million ft lbs?...Two million?....</p><p>You can't answer the question because <span style="color: red">torque isn't what makes you accelerate, it's HP.</span></p><p>If torque were the driving force that mattered all we would have to do is bolt in a Briggs n Stratton in the tow rig and gear it way down to whatever torque number we wanted.</p><p></p><p>That's way too much for me to proof read right now so I'll let you do it for me.:awesomework:</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Binder, post: 1344546, member: 16063"] OK this is a deap subject as you were all warned in the other thread.....First off we're doing this to compare tow rigs so first we should think about what we consider "better towing" Is it better acceleration ability? Is it being able to move a trailer from a dead stop? Is it ability to maintain a given speed on flat ground?...Up hill?....Down hill?...... In an earlier post the author wrote about something being more of a race engine and less of a towing engine. What to you is the difference? Yes a typical tow rig engine will last longer and/ or be more durable but for the sake of this thread say they were equal in this reguard....Now what's the difference? Say if a race car were the same weight as a tow rig and trailer combined whould the power then be measured differently? Is torque needed? Yes it is! Above I asked what is a tow rig and one of the given definitions were ability to move a load from a stop. This action requires what is called beakaway torque. It takes a certain amount of torque [COLOR="Red"]at the wheels[/COLOR] to make the wheels start to turn from a dead stop. Once the wheels begin to turn (like instantly) there is now HP which will determine how fast the wheel accelerates....Now this is where it gets confusing because we all know if you gear it lower you can accelerate faster. But gearing it lower only increases torque and not HP. The difference is the maximum speed reached will be less in a lower gear. The same work was done because the same weight was accelerated but quiker to a lower speed. HP is ability to do work and in this case work done. Now continuing with why we need torque....We now have the wheels moving and driving down the road....There is still a minimum required torque at the wheels to keep them turning. It's a minimum requirement and as long as you have this minimum all is well...Now you come to a hill which gets steeper and steeper. As the hill gets steeper there is more torque required to keep the wheels turning. As the hill continues to get steeper at some point more torque will be required to turn the wheels than is at the wheels so you will have to downshift. This concept is the most "notable" need for torque in a tow rig. Torque at the wheels, not necessarily at the engine. Next is why but first one important thing is the fact that you can measure HP based on how heavy a vehicle is and how fast it accelerated. No torque numbers needed. This is a fact not a opinion, if you don't believe this then go look it up...... Now...gearing.....We all know or should know that gears multiply torque but not HP. We also know you must keep the engine RPMs in the engines power band. The argument is often whether that "power band" is the torque band or the HP band. Now above we learned that we need a minimum torque to turn the wheels but we can measure HP strictly based on acceleration. [COLOR="red"]You can't measure torque based on acceleration![/COLOR] Acceleration is a function of HP and HP only. Torque numbers here don't matter other than you met your requirement to turn the wheels. Yes the wheels are turning and that's all you need to know. Another way to look at this concept is compare two tow rigs, one with way more torque than the other [COLOR="red"](tow rig #1)[/COLOR]but they have the same HP. Lets call this less powerful tow rig (tow rig #2). These two have the same gearing.... Now these two have a drag race and are dead even (I know what you're thinking, just listen for a minute). Tow rig number one thinks he should have won because of his superior torque at the engine and wants another race. Tow rig number two has a answer for that and he changes his gearing a bit lower so now he has the same torque at the wheels AND the same HP. Remember gears multiply torque not HP. They race again and now tow rig two looses. WTF they have the same torque at the wheels????? He lost because he didn't keep the engine in it's power band, it was reving past it's power band............ Yeah we can change these two make believe tow rigs around all day but think of it thois way. How much torque would tow rig one need to win the race? How much torque for tow rig two to win?....A million ft lbs?...Two million?.... You can't answer the question because [COLOR="red"]torque isn't what makes you accelerate, it's HP.[/COLOR] If torque were the driving force that mattered all we would have to do is bolt in a Briggs n Stratton in the tow rig and gear it way down to whatever torque number we wanted. That's way too much for me to proof read right now so I'll let you do it for me.:awesomework: [/QUOTE]
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