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After the Flop?

onepieceatatime

I like turtles...
Joined
Nov 23, 2012
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Was riding with a buggy this weekend that ended up on it's lid for a few minutes till we could flip it over. We pulled the plugs and cranked out the oil twice but the motor still ended up knocking.

I knew there's gotta be a lot of experience between every body on this forum on how to handle the situation so I thought I'd start a thread on it for advice.

Couple things looking back that I think I would do over is.

1. Get the buggy on completely level ground to help oil from finding a low spot?

2. Pull the plugs and just let it sit for a couple hours and go ride some more then come back. Feel like it's not worth it to rush and hope all the oil drained back down. One guy mentioned that since we weren't completely level maybe some of the oil laid in a corner of the intake and got sucked over to another cylinder when we did fire it up.

3. They also cranked the motor over with the plugs in but ignition off to see if it would turn over at all and I think we shouldnt have even tried that. I don't know if it could hurt anything just turning over with the starter but I don't think it's something worth risking?

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I'm assuming you don't yet know what the knocking is? Maybe a collapsed lifter?

Silly question, but did you check the oil level before you went to start it? That's all you should have to do instead of hoping the oil drained back down.

It's pretty easy to lose 2-3 quarts of oil.



and, how is the PCV system on that motor?
 
Re: Re: After the Flop?

TBItoy said:
I'm assuming you don't yet know what the knocking is? Maybe a collapsed lifter?

Silly question, but did you check the oil level before you went to start it? That's all you should have to do instead of hoping the oil drained back down.

It's pretty easy to lose 2-3 quarts of oil.



and, how is the PCV system on that motor?
We did check the oil level and it was just barely on the dipstick but someone said they seen oil dripping when it was on it's top so we assumed it was motor oil and I believe they added a quart. I guess nobody really played detective too hard and that could have been power steering fluid they seen dripping and if we knew it was that and not motor oil we could've figured the motor oil was somewhere other than where it needed to be. The knocking noise did sound like it was a rod but I obviously don't know a whole lot about motors and that's why I started the thread so that when it happens again maybe I can help handle the situation better.

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If one of the cylinders was full of oil and y'all started it, it could very well have a bent rod. The knocking would start sooner than later like as soon as that cylinder compressed. Pull the pan rotate and inspect each rod on the down throw with a good flash light pay attention to the big ends of each rod and make sure bearings are in place and no scaring on the rod chamfers. Fresh scratch marks on the rods indicate they got bound up, likely will be bent close to where the pin goes through the small end of the rod close to the piston. Good luck and as always Roll Tide Roll.
 
Hopefully this thread gets some good tech and experience. I don't recall ever seeing a dedicated thread about this.

My first guess is a lot of oil went in the intake and when they hit the starter, it did hydrolock. If anyone thinks that is logical or not let me know.

At what rate will oil pass the rings on its lid? Is that a concern over 15 minutes or an hour for a motor that isnt worn out?

I have seen different methods on venting. Some dont vent, some make a few wraps of the line, some use catch cans, ect... Not sure how your buddies is vented.

Anyone have good experience on what works for any components involved or precautionary measures?
 
If it's an ls
Route the pcv system 3 sides and down
Mine is 3 hoses run down about oil pan height. Rolled over dozens of times and never even pulled the plugs
 
Metchosin joe said:
If it's an ls
Route the pcv system 3 sides and down
Mine is 3 hoses run down about oil pan height. Rolled over dozens of times and never even pulled the plugs

That's an interesting approach. I've applied that to fuel cell vents, but I never considered it for the PCV system. I imagine one would have to be careful with the routing as to not create a P-trap. Can you give more detail about your hose routing from the valve covers and how they tie into the intake with the "3 sides and down" setup?
 
I recently flopped my 5.0 (302) on both sides at different times, same trip. When on the driver's side, no issues at all. Bumped starter and had no resistance to start. Cranked back up and life was good.
Next flop was on pass side and when laid over, oil tracked out of the valve cover and into the intake tube via a CCV hose. Bumped it over same way very conservatively and had no issues aside from smoking like crazy as the oil in the intake tube made it's way past the throttle body. Let it low idle for 10 minutes or so until it cleared up.
I have found the starter will let you know right away if there is too much to crank over.
If in doubt, pull plugs, disable ignition and crank away
 
Why not just remove the PCV system alltogether. Both my rigs have the pcv valves removed and 3/4" hose run from both of the valve covers to a location below the oil pan. Seems like all the loops of hose and check valves are added complexity without any real benefit. I understand the PCV system is "supposed" to help reduce oil leaks. I doubt theres any difference in the number of leaks an engine with a working PCV valve has vs an engine with adequately sized vent hoses.
 
d_daffron said:
Why not just remove the PCV system alltogether. Both my rigs have the pcv valves removed and 3/4" hose run from both of the valve covers to a location below the oil pan. Seems like all the loops of hose and check valves are added complexity without any real benefit. I understand the PCV system is "supposed" to help reduce oil leaks. I doubt theres any difference in the number of leaks an engine with a working PCV valve has vs an engine with adequately sized vent hoses.

I agree with you, although with some limitations.

For trail riding, IMO, I feel you are correct, and venting to atmosphere through a catch can (or not) is the way to go. That's how my buggy is set-up (with a catch can). A catch can helps retaining the oil in the engine instead of dumping oil all over the place (eco-friendly + don't have to add oil).

In case of a rollover, just flip it back over, pull the plugs, make sure the cylinders are empty, make sure the oil level is good and fire it back up. This should be all that's required to do. No oil can make it's way back in the intake so the risk of hydro-locking should be minimal.

In racing situations (like U4 etc, ...) where sustained high RPM for a long time is parameter, I read (on pirate4x4, by Wayne Hartwig) about having an engine vented to atmosphere was causing sealing issues. He resolved it with a recirculating catch can system to the best of my memory.
 
The high RPM sealing situation is caused by lack of adequate ventillation. I dont know the exact situation but I imagine its due to using multiple feet of 1/4" or 3/8" hose and expecting it to be able to keep up with the blowby created by extended periods of WOT. Unless there is a restriction on the engine's intake, the PCV system sees zero vacuum at WOT, therefore high RPM engine sealing should be no different with PCV or without PCV.

Thats also why I specified dual 3/4" vent hoses, if you increase the length of the tiny factory pcv hose without increasing the diameter you create too much restriction which builds up crankcase pressure and blows out seals and gaskets.

And yes, absolutely use a catch can or at minimum a well baffled valve cover.
 
I bent a rod on my LQ4 and it wasn't a rollover. It was hung nose up on a ledge and the engine was started. It knocked loudly and was quickly shut off. It locked the engine up and could not be turned with the spark plugs out.

I added catch cans with drains on both the suction and fresh air side of the PCV system on my new engine.
 
waggener1 said:
That's an interesting approach. I've applied that to fuel cell vents, but I never considered it for the PCV system. I imagine one would have to be careful with the routing as to not create a P-trap. Can you give more detail about your hose routing from the valve covers and how they tie into the intake with the "3 sides and down" setup?

I don't have any good pics but I just looped the engine basically then met all 3 hoses out front on the passenger side and sent them down beside the frame
 
mna0121 said:
Did you tear the engine down if so what locked it up, spun bearings on the front throws? RTR

One rod was bent and that is all that locked the engine. I think the flywheel tooth would have broken off when I was using a pry bar before the crank moved. I loosened one rod bolt and it unlocked the motor. I think it had the piston cocked and binding in the bore. No bearings spun and I used the block for the new 402.
 
d_daffron said:
Why not just remove the PCV system alltogether. Both my rigs have the pcv valves removed and 3/4" hose run from both of the valve covers to a location below the oil pan. Seems like all the loops of hose and check valves are added complexity without any real benefit. I understand the PCV system is "supposed" to help reduce oil leaks. I doubt theres any difference in the number of leaks an engine with a working PCV valve has vs an engine with adequately sized vent hoses.



This!

I run. 496 BBC on propane. Seems to work for me too.
 

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