Grapevine news from teh forest service

[Travis1]

I'm starting to hear about discussion regarding limitations of tire size and possibly vehicle width east of the mountains, and even in evans.

East of the mountains - talking 33-35" max tire size, and 76-80"? wide.

Evans - talking of 31" tires max.

Has anyone else heard this discussion going on, if so, anyone know who in the FS is bringing it up?

 

[CrustyJeep]

What's the point of limiting tire size?

 

[KarlVP]

That's the first I have heard of it.

I have heard of some imposed restricions as to access to land both for but mostly against.

I haven't heard of any tire size restrictions.

 

[powdr7]

Lets see smaller tires a lot of the time means more throttle...so that would just be hurting themselves.

 

[zig80toy]

Wow, thats new...
But yeah, I'm with Crusty, whats the point??

 

[Travis1]

What's the point of limiting tire size?

The point of the post was more to find out if anyone else has been hearing this. I'm more interested to find out where this is coming from since it was brought up once in a Region 2 meeting but I dont' know who brought it up. But to answer your question,

I can see one point - although it's the drivers not the tires that are the problem.

MOST of the trails that have been around forever were built for rigs with tires no larger than 33, *maybe* 35" tires. MOST of the trails are easily passed with a rig on 31" tires.

Enter the drivers with rigs with larger tires, get bored, go cut a bypass that's more entertaining OR purposely tear a trail up, trail braiding starts happening by either the smaller guys that can't get through the abused section, or the bigger guys that want more entertainment, and the place goes to hell.
(That's not to say that smaller rigs don't cut their own bypasses for whatever reasons)

So, the forest service steps in, notices the areas torn up by bigger rigs and decides the only way they can stop bigger rigs from tearing up the land is to "outlaw" them - since it's next to impossible to identify, let alone stop the individuals causing the problem. But, it is easy to spot a rig on 36's, 38's, 40+" tires, etc.

Then I have to look at the realistic approach to this. Now... before people start tearing me apart, keep in mind, I recently went to 38" tires so this would affect me....

People are constantly complaining about trails not being difficult enough for bigger rigs. Bigger rigs are a relatively new thing, just 5-6 years ago 35" tires were "big", at least as far as trail rigs go.

So, exactly what is the problem - is it the trails, or is it the users overbuilding their rigs, then getting bored. Personally, I lean toward the later. I like my 38's, and feel I should run what I want, but I also keep in mind that once I cleared 33" tires, I was overbuilt for 95% of the terrain out there. Which makes me the problem - not the trails. So I don't complain, but if an opportunity arises to build a tougher trail I'll gladly push for it.


As for the smaller tires causing the terrain to be torn up more comment. For most of the trails out there, that's total BS - It has NOTHING to do with tire size - EVERYTHING to do with the driver. Over most trails - I could take a rig on 31" tires and you'de never know I had been through. It's all in knowing how to drive.

Where I stand on proposing tire size limitations? I dont' like it, I don't like the idea of someone telling me I can't run a certain size of tire. But, I also have trouble thinking of a legitimate, arguable case, against such a limitation. Especially considering it's in the Forest Service's charter to protect resources first, provide open land second.

Just my .02

 

[Freeride]

Well, I'd be fawked.....


:wtf:

 

[Wildman1]

I heard about this too but it was third hand so I didn't want to say anything until I knew more.

Part of what I heard was the 33"-35" tire limit and the reasoning behind it was that 5-10 years ago there wasn't any where near the amount of trail damage as there is now. Part of the issue is that there are way more rigs on the trails now than there were before.

When I was headed up to test out my Jeep I passed a full size Chevy trugggy coming back down. This thing should have been at a monster truck rally. My point being where are you going to run a rig like that in the Naches area? Other than at Funny Rocks?

And I too think the tire size limit is a good idea. I'm sorry if this pisses some folks off. But even 5 years ago when I started wheeling the area the trail damage was not what it is today. I see no reason for anything bigger than 35" tires for any trail here in the PNW. And part of this is if you can't make it turn around. Don't ruin the trail just so you can get thru. It is kind of the same thing as Rock Stacking in other parts of the country. People are finding that once you stack rocks to get one or two rigs thru then it continues and you now have a paved hwy that your VW Golf can do.

You can build what ever you want but to make the trail WORK FOR YOUR RIG is wrong. Because it isn't just about you and your rig. There are many others who want to enjoy the same trail you are. To modify the trail just for you is what is ruining them.

 

[Symon623]

I have 37's and am considering going back to a 35-36 for that reason...The obstacles are easier and the ones that I can't make? are mostly because I don't have sticky tires? Besides....35's are cheaper so I can spend more money on HORSEPOWER.......:redneck:

 

[KarlVP]

The MAJORITY of rigs out there run a 35 or below tire still to this day.

I think it is an issue of overpopulation. Sure, you can really do some damage with a huge tire, or even create a situation that causes smaller rigs to have trouble in. But it mainly boils down to the driver, and education. I'd be pissed if I had just bought a set of huge tires and those who are they started imposing restricions.

IMHO, limiting the tire size is not the way to go. Like I said before, most of us are within the size limit anyway. And those of us that have huge, purpose-built rigs on huge meats, respect what we have.

For the most part, what I see out here in the PNW is not enough education. But no matter what you do, you will always have the "hold my beer and watch this" crowd.

 

[Symon623]

The MAJORITY of rigs out there run a 35 or below tire still to this day.

I think it is an issue of overpopulation. Sure, you can really do some damage with a huge tire, or even create a situation that causes smaller rigs to have trouble in. But it mainly boils down to the driver, and education. I'd be pissed if I had just bought a set of huge tires and those who are they started imposing restricions.

IMHO, limiting the tire size is not the way to go. Like I said before, most of us are within the size limit anyway. And those of us that have huge, purpose-built rigs on huge meats, respect what we have.

For the most part, what I see out here in the PNW is not enough education. But no matter what you do, you will always have the "hold my beer and watch this" crowd.

Well put Karl.....We have the same thing down here....

 

[Travis1]

The MAJORITY of rigs out there run a 35 or below tire still to this day.

I think it is an issue of overpopulation. Sure, you can really do some damage with a huge tire, or even create a situation that causes smaller rigs to have trouble in. But it mainly boils down to the driver, and education. I'd be pissed if I had just bought a set of huge tires and those who are they started imposing restricions.

IMHO, limiting the tire size is not the way to go. Like I said before, most of us are within the size limit anyway. And those of us that have huge, purpose-built rigs on huge meats, respect what we have.

For the most part, what I see out here in the PNW is not enough education. But no matter what you do, you will always have the "hold my beer and watch this" crowd.

That "majority" is quickly dissapearing; in the last 5-6 years out here it's gone from large tires being rare - and some said stupid - to the thing to have. As far as numbers that are actually out on the trail on a regular basis, I've started to see large tires vs. smaller getting closer to 50/50.

Overpopulation is an issue, at the same time tire size has gone up, the sport as exploded. But dis-respect for our land is more of an issue than overpopulation for most areas.

Hey, I did just buy those 38" tires. But if that type of legislation is where things are headed... I'll get over it and move on. If going to smaller tires means keeping land open, I'll accept that comprimise. Honestly, I can have just as much fun in a rig with 33's as 38's. I bought 38's because I had the clearance, and I'm usually out there to be out there, not for the challenge.

I agree - there's not enough education. But at the same time, there is no law enforcement. Either in the form of officers handing out tickets (for real problems) or us turning our own in when necessary.

 

[Comet]

Well, I personally don't want to build a rig so big that it makes 85% of the trails I use a cake walk. However, I do not think tire size is the problem. Trail wear and tear is almost completely a result of overcrowding. Typical govt. solution to make closures without any science or facts, just reaction. They have the data and the data shows less trails, yet an explosion in ORV users. Seems a pretty easy conclusion to me, but more studies would need to be done.
I have no problem limiting tire size on some trails, but I really don't see the point. A 40" tire on a 2-3 rated trail is like having a 31" tire on a FS gravel road. The irony about their thought process is on those trails named, I think this would have the opposite effect that they want. More damage.
If they want to open NEW trails with more difficult ratings and limit the tire size to not less than 35", then I think they'd reduce the overpopulation on the trails cited.

 

[Dirtball]

ok, so are we down to the "self-police" policy and have the guts to tell "our 4x4 buddies" to knock it off when we see them tearing things up. or better yet, take the picture and post it? i have seen and spoken to tons of throttle-jockys and all you get is the "go F yourself". until it becomes unpopular to be the big bad rebel it will continue. but if they can no longer hide in their peer groups and are made an example (and i do mean heavy fines!) they wont stop. and i'm sure we are not all perfectly inocent. set the example and hold all in your group to it no matter what. might cost you a friend or two but which do you value more... your sport or someone who dosent give a damn.

 

[KarlVP]

This is where it gets tricky. We can police our own, but we have seen in the past where BLATANT disrespect for the land, has led to nothing. I'm talking about that kid that left his junk up at evans creek. No fines, no tickets, no phone calls from law enforcemnent. Let's not re-visit that, I just wanted to make an example. If the law enforcement officers aren't going to do anything about land abuse, than what are they there for? Seriously, why pay a public servant if he / she isn't going to serve? In that case, we had rock solid evidance of a dumper and the means to fine and convict said individual. NOTHING HAPPENED. We policed our own, and the situation was taken care of.... eventually.

Face it folks, we all love wheelin. 80% of the time, if we see someone doing something stupid, with a little tact, we can educate those people to the correct way of doing things. Thus self policing the community. It's those who slip under the radar, or the dumpers at ORV areas that phuck it up for everyone. They aren't even wheelers.

What is it going to take to get the proper authorities on our side? I know it has been discussed before, you can't police everyone all the time. And half the time, who to call? Who to send photos to when you see someone breaking the LAW?

The simple solution for the law / forest service / DNR is to close the land. If they are willing to work with us with some sort of tire size thing, I am all for it.

 

[Dirtball]

by self policing i mean post their pictures here and everywhere we can with a name and licence number if you get one. then every time any of us see these jerks we keep an eye on them and let them know we dont approve. eventually (maybe) the authorities will pick up on it and do something. at least we would be showing that we are not all a bunch of drunk yahoo's

 

[KarlVP]

by self policing i mean post their pictures here and everywhere we can with a name and licence number if you get one. then every time any of us see these jerks we keep an eye on them and let them know we dont approve. eventually (maybe) the authorities will pick up on it and do something. at least we would be showing that we are not all a bunch of drunk yahoo's

Mark, that has been discussed before in great deail. And it IS a great idea. However, and I may be jumping the gun, but we don't have any pics yet. (Ask Crash).

There is a section here in the forum for Problem Wheelers. If you see one tell crash and they will be publicly outed.

 

[Travis1]

This is where it gets tricky. We can police our own, but we have seen in the past where BLATANT disrespect for the land, has led to nothing. I'm talking about that kid that left his junk up at evans creek. No fines, no tickets, no phone calls from law enforcemnent.

In that particular incident - I got the distinct impression that those who were directly involved didn't really want law enforcement involved. They just wanted the rig out and to "dust" the entire situation back under the carpet.

Trust me - I've seen law enforcement do nothing after catching people red handed - but I'm not sure it's fair to blame them for doing nothing in that incident if they weren't properly informed.

Law enforcement (or lack of) is always a gripe I have - and I've been pushing those that enforce the Tahuya area to by much heavier handed. Less warnings - more tickets, more impounds, more arrests. Warnings and gates just don't get the point across. Mostly what I'm referring to here though is partying.

 

[KarlVP]

Law enforcement (or lack of) is always a gripe I have - and I've been pushing those that enforce the Tahuya area to by much heavier handed. Less warnings - more tickets, more impounds, more arrests. Warnings and gates just don't get the point across. Mostly what I'm referring to here though is partying.

If you start hammering people, word gets out quick. I say slam the people that are blatantly breaking the rules. Word of mouth is the best advertisment possible.

 

[Wildman1]

And you know as always it comes down to us sitting here talking about it but even though some of us try it makes no differance. We stopped some kids tearing up the deep mud holes on Naches trail during the Jambo. They just laughed at us. And after we left you could hear them cheering as the one guy with the stuck full size Chev pickup tried to get out.

Some of the people got pictures and as far as I know were going to turn them into the OHV guys at the Jambo. Karl I'll agree that we need more proper education but how? This isn't like you need a 4WD lic before you can take your rig off-road. I mean if you did have to have one then you could run it like hunter safety. But that ain't going to happen.

The more we all stand together the better it will be. I know the PNW4WDA has it's issues but it is the only thing going to help change or better what we got. It is just like the military, it's not it that is the problem it is the people in it. And the only way to make a change is to get involved and be in a position to make things happen. Now I know I am standing on my soapbox and haven't been real involved before but I never had the time between civ work & the Nat Guard. Now that I am almost retired I want to start getting more involved.