Pro's N Con's More HP then "needed"

P · Sep 14, 2009

Dad started on that drop the 383 in my buggy discussion again this weekend. I dont know if I would like it or not. Yea it would be awesome to have some woom pow but then I start thinking of the con's ( parts ) and really dont know what to think.

I think I would save some weight..(aluminum heads) but then again, Id propane it so that would change that conversation up as well... although a little weight over the rear wouldnt neccasarily be a bad thing.

Thoughts and opinions.

Im like this on it.

Pro's Woom Pow

Cons worry about tranny, Tcase, driveshaft up front and weight setup of propane....

BamaTJ · Sep 14, 2009

Sounds awesome, except for the propane part. I am just not a big fan of pane manly because it stinks so bad and having to carry extra tanks and all. If you could find a good used injection setup that would be the ticket. Gregg found a killer deal on his setup, ask him to be on the lookout for a deal....

J.A.B · Sep 14, 2009

I think it is an awesome idea but like Matt said don't do the propane. I almost went that route but saw the error of my ways - it is cheap and easy but is a pain in the ass most of the time to keep propane filled and the like.

Cole · Sep 14, 2009

Of Course you need more power. I would rather have that 383 on pane than that weak 350 you got now. I say do it.

InittowiniT · Sep 14, 2009

My .02 I ran propane for about 3 years its great for cheap fuel injection , there is no smell if system is adjusted correct, just like if fuel injection runs rich you smell gas. But the running out of propane sucks.! No bbq tank will work no going to the 7 eleven, you must be prepared with another tank. On the power and you being cheap i'd stick with what I got. More power equals more breakage, while nothing is bullet proof you don't have a 4 banger either.

jrhall · Sep 14, 2009

just put the 383 in, then mass flo--- vahola... more power... Quit being a *****. :flipoff1:

patooyee · Sep 14, 2009

I think propane exhaust smells better than gas exhaust. I've come to like the smell of propane exhaust anyway. It smells fresh, like something you'de want in the atmosphere, not sharp and polluting.

How much power are you looking at with the 383? I've seen 300hp 383s and 500 hp 383s.

I have a very different view of reliability than you guys up there tend to have. You're so close to the trails that breaking is no big deal. But the closest trail to me is 6 hours away and I damn sure ain't going that far to break and wrench in the mud all weekend. Thus, I run the parts that will allow me to endure (for the most part) the level of abuse that I need to have fun and the additional weight of said parts is no big deal. But I wouldn't think that a mild 383 is going to give you so much more power than a stock 350 that you're suddenly going to start breaking parts left and right, up and down.

I say do it and if **** breaks it "justifies the upgrade" as Jimmy would say. It's only money, right? You seem to have plenty of it.

That being said, I don't know that I would put an old-school Gen I engine in anything anymore. If all you're looking for is mild 383 power you can easily get that out of a stock 6.0 and those things are going pretty cheap these days and are very reliable with said power and someday if you really wanted to step up they can be modified for insane power. I think you could put a 6.0 in for cheaper than you could put performance parts in a 350 block to make a fuel injected 383.

J. J.

benfowler87 · Sep 14, 2009

Your right foot controls the amount of breakage, not the motor.

P · Sep 14, 2009

benfowler87 said:
Your right foot controls the amount of breakage, not the motor.

I should be fine then cause I continually get called a *****. :wtflol:

PsDad · Sep 14, 2009

450 TO 475 HP DEPENDING ON THE INTAKE AND HEADERS, ABOUT THE SAME ON TORQUE. THE SHORT BLOCK WAS BUILT BY RACING HEAD SERVICE IN MEMPHIS, AND THE ALUMINUM HEADS WERE TOUCHED UP BY A NATIONAL CHAMPION ALCOHOL RACER. GEN ONE SMALL BLOCK?? I'LL BUILD YOU THE SAME HP FOR HALF THE MONEY OF AN LS6, IT'LL BE RELIABLE AND INEXPENSIVE TO FIX IF IT DOES GIVE TROUBLE. SIMPLE IS GOOD AND CHEAP AIN'T BAD EITHER. 'COURSE I ONLY BEEN DICKIN WITH MOTORS FOR 50 YEARS SO WHAT DO I KNOW??

RIVING:

J.A.B · Sep 14, 2009

I have a very similar set up going in my jeep and am fired the hell up.

P - put this damn motor in you rig - you will not regret :****:

s10me · Sep 14, 2009

i've had a 383 in mine for about three years. it has 427hp at the flywheel with throttle body injection. i only break the same **** that i would break with a four cyl. the motor has never givin me any trouble

Budget YJ · Sep 14, 2009

I love my propane :****:
Fires right up cold or hot....just like fuel inj.
My motor also runs cooler with the propane. Don't know if that is common or not but helped mine.
Mine doesent smell and you can get propane just about anywhere now,even at Ace Hardware.
They have an adapter for BBQ tanks also. Its only $35
It also has more octane for your 383 and is cheaper than race gas :****:
Just my .02

xjkrawler · Sep 14, 2009

Budget YJ said:
I love my propane :****:
Fires right up cold or hot....just like fuel inj.
My motor also runs cooler with the propane. Don't know if that is common or not but helped mine.
Mine doesent smell and you can get propane just about anywhere now,even at Ace Hardware.
They have an adapter for BBQ tanks also. Its only $35
It also has more octane for your 383 and is cheaper than race gas :****:
Just my .02

110 octane.

also propane is normally stored at high pressure, so most of the propane has turned into liquid. When the propane comes out of the tank as a vapor it absorbs a tremendous amount of heat. It gets super cold by the time it gets to the propane carb. This is why it has to go through a heater in the regulator/mixer/etc. This is why the hot water out of the motor is used to fully vaporize the gas and to prevent icing up of the intake at the propane carb - otherwise the vapor would freeze water out of the air coming into the motor and quickly clog up the intake. So, I'd have to disagree about the lower temperature thermostat, you need as much heat in the motor as possible (plus a propane motor becomes more efficient at higher temperature).

one of the upsides of propane is it has less carbon molecules in it than gasoline. Carbon is what turns oil black and condenses into sludge. Consequently, oil in propane motors stays VERY clean, and propane motors wear much less than gasoline motors do.

The one side effect of the "clean fuel" on propane motors is that the valves tend to burn up quickly (stock valves and seats) because propane doesn't provide lubrication to the valve and valve seats like gasoline does. This can often be taken care of by installing hardened seats and hi-temp exhaust valves. Even the "unleaded" motors that came with hardened seats (since 73-ish) still have trouble with valves using propane fuel, so it is usually necessary to install something like Stellite seats in the exhaust to keep the seats from receding. Intakes do not need hardened seats because they are cooled and somewhat lubed by the incoming intake charge.

patooyee · Sep 14, 2009

PsDad said:
450 TO 475 HP DEPENDING ON THE INTAKE AND HEADERS, ABOUT THE SAME ON TORQUE. THE SHORT BLOCK WAS BUILT BY RACING HEAD SERVICE IN MEMPHIS, AND THE ALUMINUM HEADS WERE TOUCHED UP BY A NATIONAL CHAMPION ALCOHOL RACER. GEN ONE SMALL BLOCK?? I'LL BUILD YOU THE SAME HP FOR HALF THE MONEY OF AN LS6, IT'LL BE RELIABLE AND INEXPENSIVE TO FIX IF IT DOES GIVE TROUBLE. SIMPLE IS GOOD AND CHEAP AIN'T BAD EITHER. 'COURSE I ONLY BEEN DICKIN WITH MOTORS FOR 50 YEARS SO WHAT DO I KNOW??RIVING:

Nothing wrong with Gen I and if you have it already built and paid for and a resource like your dad then I say go for it. You didn't say you had the engine already. It sounded like you were going to build something ... no doubt late gen is more expensive when it comes to modifying. But I know people with $900 into a stock 6.0 that puts out close to 400hp and can do so for 300,000 miles. You can't get that kind of power and reliability out of a Gen I for $900 or stock Gen I.

As for simplicity I would argue that the accuracy of better diagnostics capability is simpler to diag than an EFI system that puts out relatively little info like an OBDI. I've had lots of friends with OBDI and aftermarket systems have so many issues with tuning and driveability due to poor diagnostics. I know people whose rigs wouldn't run for weeks on end just because they were chasing faulty sensors that the computer didn't have enough input from to spit out a code. Granted, it may have been operator error too. We don't all have dads that are engine gurus. Which leads me to my next point ...

You seem to have a unique tool in your shed in your dad. Given that new piece of info, your options are very different than most of us. Thus, if I were you, I would give what your dad says more weight than anything you read here.

Back when I was deciding on a motor for my new build I knew I wanted lots of power for as little fuss in building as possible within my price range. I had a Gen I and wanted to keep it and my propane. But to get the power I wanted I knew I would have to build the Gen I and I'm not an engine guru. I've delved but I'm not confident enuogh in my experience to build something with a lot of power that won't self destruct. Thus, I had to either pay someone to build or buy something with the power I wanted stock. Rather than spend my money on labor I spent it on parts, ie my LS2. I could have spent about as much as I spent on my LS2 on a Gen I instead and got similar power out of it. But that would have been on the edge in terms of reliability for a Gen I. Had I had someone in my family like your dad though my choices would have been very different I am sure.

J. J.

patooyee · Sep 14, 2009

One final thing ... after YEARS of running propane I can say that it just doesn't get any simpler or more reliable.

I just can't find anywhere to buy it in this ass-backwards podunk town that I live in. That played a factor in my decision to ditch it in favor of MPFI, too.

J. J.

blacksheep10 · Sep 14, 2009

PsDad said:
450 TO 475 HP DEPENDING ON THE INTAKE AND HEADERS, ABOUT THE SAME ON TORQUE. THE SHORT BLOCK WAS BUILT BY RACING HEAD SERVICE IN MEMPHIS, AND THE ALUMINUM HEADS WERE TOUCHED UP BY A NATIONAL CHAMPION ALCOHOL RACER. GEN ONE SMALL BLOCK?? I'LL BUILD YOU THE SAME HP FOR HALF THE MONEY OF AN LS6, IT'LL BE RELIABLE AND INEXPENSIVE TO FIX IF IT DOES GIVE TROUBLE. SIMPLE IS GOOD AND CHEAP AIN'T BAD EITHER. 'COURSE I ONLY BEEN DICKIN WITH MOTORS FOR 50 YEARS SO WHAT DO I KNOW??RIVING:

Rich, after years of messing with it, I have to disagree a bit here. Building a reliable 400ish horse from a gen 1 is expensive to do right and make it to 100's of K miles. A 6 liter is fawking cheap.
Now if you mean 800 horse, I have no input on making big power and $ spent for reliability and longevity.

patooyee · Sep 14, 2009

Look at power output vs reliability. 500 hp in a Gen 1 is on the edge of reliability in terms of block and components.

Look at TC's new engine. I don't know what he paid for it but sticker is $25k for 600 hp out of an oldgen small block and to make it reliable they have to use aftermarket everything. Not even the block is produced by GM.

600hp for a newgen is NOTHING. It's a cam, some heads, headers, and a program and you'll still get 100k out of the motor. I don't think the debate is between Old or Newgen though so I'll stop there.

I think that if this 383 that your dad apparently already has is all he says its cracked up to be you should go with it. When's the last time you heard of someone going to more power and regretting it?

J. J.

HotRodpayton · Sep 14, 2009

Do it man, I think that is a no brainer. It will be alot mo fun to mat the pedal+ when you get ready to cook just back the buggy up to your grill :wtflol: