Binder
Well-Known Member
Nobody cares. That's why it's rated in HP and not torque.:;
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Help Support Hardline Crawlers :
Torque vs. Horsepower
- Thread starter Trailtoy1993
- Start date
Nobody cares. That's why it's rated in HP and not torque.:;
Binder
Well-Known Member
This will still only give you torque at peak HP but not peak torque.
Binder
Well-Known Member
OK this is a deap subject as you were all warned in the other thread.....First off we're doing this to compare tow rigs so first we should think about what we consider "better towing" Is it better acceleration ability? Is it being able to move a trailer from a dead stop? Is it ability to maintain a given speed on flat ground?...Up hill?....Down hill?......
In an earlier post the author wrote about something being more of a race engine and less of a towing engine. What to you is the difference? Yes a typical tow rig engine will last longer and/ or be more durable but for the sake of this thread say they were equal in this reguard....Now what's the difference? Say if a race car were the same weight as a tow rig and trailer combined whould the power then be measured differently?
Is torque needed? Yes it is! Above I asked what is a tow rig and one of the given definitions were ability to move a load from a stop. This action requires what is called beakaway torque. It takes a certain amount of torque at the wheels to make the wheels start to turn from a dead stop. Once the wheels begin to turn (like instantly) there is now HP which will determine how fast the wheel accelerates....Now this is where it gets confusing because we all know if you gear it lower you can accelerate faster. But gearing it lower only increases torque and not HP. The difference is the maximum speed reached will be less in a lower gear. The same work was done because the same weight was accelerated but quiker to a lower speed. HP is ability to do work and in this case work done.
Now continuing with why we need torque....We now have the wheels moving and driving down the road....There is still a minimum required torque at the wheels to keep them turning. It's a minimum requirement and as long as you have this minimum all is well...Now you come to a hill which gets steeper and steeper. As the hill gets steeper there is more torque required to keep the wheels turning. As the hill continues to get steeper at some point more torque will be required to turn the wheels than is at the wheels so you will have to downshift. This concept is the most "notable" need for torque in a tow rig. Torque at the wheels, not necessarily at the engine. Next is why but first one important thing is the fact that you can measure HP based on how heavy a vehicle is and how fast it accelerated. No torque numbers needed. This is a fact not a opinion, if you don't believe this then go look it up......
Now...gearing.....We all know or should know that gears multiply torque but not HP. We also know you must keep the engine RPMs in the engines power band. The argument is often whether that "power band" is the torque band or the HP band. Now above we learned that we need a minimum torque to turn the wheels but we can measure HP strictly based on acceleration. You can't measure torque based on acceleration! Acceleration is a function of HP and HP only. Torque numbers here don't matter other than you met your requirement to turn the wheels. Yes the wheels are turning and that's all you need to know.
Another way to look at this concept is compare two tow rigs, one with way more torque than the other (tow rig #1)but they have the same HP. Lets call this less powerful tow rig (tow rig #2). These two have the same gearing.... Now these two have a drag race and are dead even (I know what you're thinking, just listen for a minute). Tow rig number one thinks he should have won because of his superior torque at the engine and wants another race. Tow rig number two has a answer for that and he changes his gearing a bit lower so now he has the same torque at the wheels AND the same HP. Remember gears multiply torque not HP. They race again and now tow rig two looses. WTF they have the same torque at the wheels????? He lost because he didn't keep the engine in it's power band, it was reving past it's power band............
Yeah we can change these two make believe tow rigs around all day but think of it thois way. How much torque would tow rig one need to win the race? How much torque for tow rig two to win?....A million ft lbs?...Two million?....
You can't answer the question because torque isn't what makes you accelerate, it's HP.
If torque were the driving force that mattered all we would have to do is bolt in a Briggs n Stratton in the tow rig and gear it way down to whatever torque number we wanted.
That's way too much for me to proof read right now so I'll let you do it for me.:awesomework:
In an earlier post the author wrote about something being more of a race engine and less of a towing engine. What to you is the difference? Yes a typical tow rig engine will last longer and/ or be more durable but for the sake of this thread say they were equal in this reguard....Now what's the difference? Say if a race car were the same weight as a tow rig and trailer combined whould the power then be measured differently?
Is torque needed? Yes it is! Above I asked what is a tow rig and one of the given definitions were ability to move a load from a stop. This action requires what is called beakaway torque. It takes a certain amount of torque at the wheels to make the wheels start to turn from a dead stop. Once the wheels begin to turn (like instantly) there is now HP which will determine how fast the wheel accelerates....Now this is where it gets confusing because we all know if you gear it lower you can accelerate faster. But gearing it lower only increases torque and not HP. The difference is the maximum speed reached will be less in a lower gear. The same work was done because the same weight was accelerated but quiker to a lower speed. HP is ability to do work and in this case work done.
Now continuing with why we need torque....We now have the wheels moving and driving down the road....There is still a minimum required torque at the wheels to keep them turning. It's a minimum requirement and as long as you have this minimum all is well...Now you come to a hill which gets steeper and steeper. As the hill gets steeper there is more torque required to keep the wheels turning. As the hill continues to get steeper at some point more torque will be required to turn the wheels than is at the wheels so you will have to downshift. This concept is the most "notable" need for torque in a tow rig. Torque at the wheels, not necessarily at the engine. Next is why but first one important thing is the fact that you can measure HP based on how heavy a vehicle is and how fast it accelerated. No torque numbers needed. This is a fact not a opinion, if you don't believe this then go look it up......
Now...gearing.....We all know or should know that gears multiply torque but not HP. We also know you must keep the engine RPMs in the engines power band. The argument is often whether that "power band" is the torque band or the HP band. Now above we learned that we need a minimum torque to turn the wheels but we can measure HP strictly based on acceleration. You can't measure torque based on acceleration! Acceleration is a function of HP and HP only. Torque numbers here don't matter other than you met your requirement to turn the wheels. Yes the wheels are turning and that's all you need to know.
Another way to look at this concept is compare two tow rigs, one with way more torque than the other (tow rig #1)but they have the same HP. Lets call this less powerful tow rig (tow rig #2). These two have the same gearing.... Now these two have a drag race and are dead even (I know what you're thinking, just listen for a minute). Tow rig number one thinks he should have won because of his superior torque at the engine and wants another race. Tow rig number two has a answer for that and he changes his gearing a bit lower so now he has the same torque at the wheels AND the same HP. Remember gears multiply torque not HP. They race again and now tow rig two looses. WTF they have the same torque at the wheels????? He lost because he didn't keep the engine in it's power band, it was reving past it's power band............
Yeah we can change these two make believe tow rigs around all day but think of it thois way. How much torque would tow rig one need to win the race? How much torque for tow rig two to win?....A million ft lbs?...Two million?....
You can't answer the question because torque isn't what makes you accelerate, it's HP.
If torque were the driving force that mattered all we would have to do is bolt in a Briggs n Stratton in the tow rig and gear it way down to whatever torque number we wanted.
That's way too much for me to proof read right now so I'll let you do it for me.:awesomework:
I disagree. Torque is directly related to acceleration. It may not tell you your maximum torque available, but at least what was used. HP is important because you need to carry a usable amount of torque across a wide operating speed.
When you talk about calculating HP with weight and acceleration (still missing some components), I agree, you are not directly using torque but you are still using the basic concept of physics that require a force or torque to create motion.
F = mass x acceleration. In your example this is weight of the truck x acceleration
This force can be easily turned into a torque.
T = F x r where r is the radius of your tire.
Yes indirectly you may not use torque in your equation to solve for HP. Its still there.
When you look at a motor (gas or electric) the HP rating is a rated value of the motor given at a rated speed. The instantaneous power that a motor is producing is a variable depending on the torque output and speed at that moment.
When you talk about calculating HP with weight and acceleration (still missing some components), I agree, you are not directly using torque but you are still using the basic concept of physics that require a force or torque to create motion.
F = mass x acceleration. In your example this is weight of the truck x acceleration
This force can be easily turned into a torque.
T = F x r where r is the radius of your tire.
Yes indirectly you may not use torque in your equation to solve for HP. Its still there.
When you look at a motor (gas or electric) the HP rating is a rated value of the motor given at a rated speed. The instantaneous power that a motor is producing is a variable depending on the torque output and speed at that moment.
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Glenn
Well-Known Member
And yet here you are....:haha:
TreeClimber
Well-Known Member
What about Friction. Both the rolling resistance of the tire against the ground; and the vehicle's friction against the environment; and whether or not the ground is flat.
Binder
Well-Known Member
Um no it isn't. Who said this vehicle is powered by a internal combustion engine? If it were a rocket or a bunch of midgets pushing you can still figure HP. How much torque does a mudget make anyways?:haha:
Binder
Well-Known Member
Yes there are more facytors and the more you use the more accurate the answer will be...Don't forget to factor in the gravitational pull of the moon......And the stars.....
they have short legs so i assume they can not run fast. Assuming they can produce the same power as us they would produce more torque than you or I (as long as you are not an uber-midget) . :flipoff:
this rolls into the force equation. Binder's example would account for these. If you took theoretical numbers from the enginer or tires you would need to account for drag, resistance, etc to get to your real world results
zukkev
Cornfuzzled yet again...
Oopsey!:awesomework:---got 'em backwards! :redneck: But in a nutshell...it is. Do you work???:fawkdancesmiley::haha:
Flat-Bed_3rd_Gen
Well-Known Member
Ummm..... You did... In the novel you wrote about two tow rigs...
Binder
Well-Known Member
I may not have written it correctly but it was intended to be a separate example...
Another thing to think about that I don't think has been brought up lately, maybe in the old thread.....You can have torque at zero RPM. How fast you going to go with a couple million Ft-lbs at zero RPM?:corn:
ain'tstuckjustresting
RIP Mister 12/5/12
Not very fast but somethings fix'n to come uncunted real quick like!:redneck:
ain'tstuckjustresting
RIP Mister 12/5/12
I would think midgets are low torque models. They are shipped with short lever arms (and legs)But are built for high RPM's:jerkit2:
Binder
Well-Known Member
I think we should get a bunch of midgets and make them push a truck around....time them.
Real world test stuff........Could make a funny you tube documentary type video.:haha:
Binder
Well-Known Member
I don't give a crap either but like I said it's a deep subject and it takes a bunch to get to the bottom of it.:redneck:
I wouldn't bother but this is what it took to keep all of this out of my other thread.....whateva....
ain'tstuckjustresting
RIP Mister 12/5/12
The only good thing about this thread is you can skip 4 or 5 pages at a time and not miss anything. It's just someone else bitching at Binder about being stupid and him lapping it up like a sick dogg.:Smurfing:
Binder
Well-Known Member
Uh yeah that's it.....Come back when you have something more inteligent to add other than talking out of your ass.:kiss:
ain'tstuckjustresting
RIP Mister 12/5/12
So yeah I talk out of my ass quite often but that statement does not qualify.
There are three interconnected threads based solely on the fact that you like to argue with people regardless of their views. :fawkdancesmiley:
There are three interconnected threads based solely on the fact that you like to argue with people regardless of their views. :fawkdancesmiley:
