open carry

[wentz912]

There is a LOT of bad information in this thread.

Example:
Open carry is perfectly legal in the State of Washington, this "unwanted attention" is certainly NOT a good reason to not carry. Probably one of the worst reasons not to, in my opinion. Is it a "better" idea to carry concealed? Of course it is, the element of surprise is your friend should you find yourself in a violent interaction with an intruder.

Example:
Dain Bramage's statement concerning surrendering his Concealed Pistol License. TERRIBLE idea. Individuals are under NO legal obligation to surrender ANY paperwork regarding identification, registration, proof of insurance, etc until the stopping officer has informed said individual for the reason of the stop.

 

[dirtygoat]

. Individuals are under NO legal obligation to surrender ANY paperwork regarding identification, registration, proof of insurance, etc until the stopping officer has informed said individual for the reason of the stop.

Off topic, but I had a cop pull me over, walked up to my window and asked, "Do you have your license, registration and proof of insurance?"... I said, "I sure do" and rolled my window back up...:redneck:

My brother almost **** his pants...

The officer tapped on my window, so I rolled it down and asked if I could help him... He said, "Can I see your license, registration and proof of insurance."

 

[Binder]

Example:
Dain Bramage's statement concerning surrendering his Concealed Pistol License. TERRIBLE idea. Individuals are under NO legal obligation to surrender ANY paperwork regarding identification, registration, proof of insurance, etc until the stopping officer has informed said individual for the reason of the stop.

So why is this a terrible idea? They're going to find out anyways.

 

[Binder]

I prefer to just put my stuff in the trunk....

But this thread isn't about your sexual preference.:haha::flipoff:

 

[Not Jobless]

There is a LOT of bad information in this thread.

Example:
Dain Bramage's statement concerning surrendering his Concealed Pistol License. TERRIBLE idea. Individuals are under NO legal obligation to surrender ANY paperwork regarding identification, registration, proof of insurance, etc until the stopping officer has informed said individual for the reason of the stop.

Do you know how many tickets this very thing has saved me from getting? I give them evrything they ask for and my CPL. 99% of the time it's a "get out of jail free card"

 

[wentz912]

Off topic, but I had a cop pull me over, walked up to my window and asked, "Do you have your license, registration and proof of insurance?"... I said, "I sure do" and rolled my window back up...:redneck:

My brother almost **** his pants...

The officer tapped on my window, so I rolled it down and asked if I could help him... He said, "Can I see your license, registration and proof of insurance."

Did you give it to him? If you did, at that point you surrendered your personal rights at the same time.

So why is this a terrible idea? They're going to find out anyways.

Because most officers will break the law without any resistance because individuals don't know any better. They are not entitled to see ANYTHING without probably cause or consent. Thus, until they they have performed the step of stating why they have stopped you, they are asking for your information (ie: detaining you) without probable cause and therefore ARE BREAKING THE LAW!

Do you know how many tickets this very thing has saved me from getting? I give them evrything they ask for and my CPL. 99% of the time it's a "get out of jail free card"

Congratulations. You are one of those that abuses something that is a joke already anyhow. You're in the same boat as those that offer up their military ID when stopped for a traffic violation in hopes of the same special treatment.

 

[dirtygoat]

Did you give it to him? If you did, at that point you surrendered your personal rights at the same time.

Actually I was hit by a drunk driver a couple days before and the passenger fender area was smashed... I saw the cop coming toward me in the opposite direction and rubber necking like a mother ****er... Watched him flip a ***** in my mirror and hit his lights... This was during daylight hours...

I asked him why he pulled me over when I rolled down the window the second time and he told me my headlight was out... I told him I didn't even have my headlights on so there shouldn't be a problem... He told me I better get it fixed and I explained that until my lawyer and insurance said it was ok to fix it no such thing would happen... He got a little pissy with me and I grabbed my phone and started to call my lawyer... He said he would be back and went to his car, I'm guessing he ran my plates... When he came back he told me that I can't drive my vehicle at night and left...

 

[Binder]

Because most officers will break the law without any resistance because individuals don't know any better. They are not entitled to see ANYTHING without probably cause or consent. Thus, until they they have performed the step of stating why they have stopped you, they are asking for your information (ie: detaining you) without probable cause and therefore ARE BREAKING THE LAW!

Um no... They only need to ask for your CPL and you are required to show. No probable cause required. No you don't have to show unless asked but they will find out regardless. When they find out they will likely ask.... Just saves a step and shows a courtesy which could save you some grief.

 

[crash2]

All this talk I wanna do....... :haha:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/948-2Vzgi3w" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[Corey Y]

Would it be illegal to shoot some blanks out the window as you are being pulled over? Maybe brandishing? :haha:

 

[Binder]

Because most officers will break the law without any resistance because individuals don't know any better. They are not entitled to see ANYTHING without probably cause or consent.

Um no... They only need to ask for your CPL and you are required to show. No probable cause required. No you don't have to show unless asked but they will find out regardless. When they find out they will likely ask.... Just saves a step and shows a courtesy which could save you some grief.

From RCW 9.41.050

Every licensee shall have his or her concealed pistol license in his or her immediate possession at all times that he or she is required by this section to have a concealed pistol license and shall display the same upon demand to any police officer ............

 

[lilyota]

What in God's name are you blathering about, sir?


So he knows about the Franchi O/U my Grandpa bought me before he died? :rolleyes::cool:

I have no idea lol. I thought I had numchuck skills but I was wrong about that. Speaking of numchuks do you need a permit to conseal those too.

 

[Not Jobless]

Did you give it to him? If you did, at that point you surrendered your personal rights at the same time.

Congratulations. You are one of those that abuses something that is a joke already anyhow. You're in the same boat as those that offer up their military ID when stopped for a traffic violation in hopes of the same special treatment.

How is a CPL and using to get out of a traffic ticket a joke?

If I still had my military ID I would use it to.

These rights you speak of, they're my rights, I can do with them as I so choose as the situation warrants. Or have you forgotten that?

Do you currently have either a CPL or Military ID? Have you ever?

 

[Not Jobless]

I have no idea lol. I thought I had numchuck skills but I was wrong about that. Speaking of numchuks do you need a permit to conseal those too.

Why? You going to bring two sticks to a gun fight?

 

[wentz912]

From RCW 9.41.050

Right, but they still have to have probably cause in order to ask you for it. IE spotting your concealed weapon, etc. If you just hand it over because they randomly asked you for it, you have surrendered your personal liberty at that time.

How is a CPL and using to get out of a traffic ticket a joke?

If I still had my military ID I would use it to.

These rights you speak of, they're my rights, I can do with them as I so choose as the situation warrants. Or have you forgotten that?

Do you currently have either a CPL or Military ID? Have you ever?

Using your CPL/CAC to help you "get out of jail free" is a joke because you're asking for special treatment just because you have a "clean" record or have made a sacrifice through duty to our country. Face it, if the officer legitimately pulled you over for a real infraction. You deserve to be punished JUST LIKE EVERYBODY ELSE. Funny how everybody is all for equality until something a "good guy" screws up and gets popped for it.

Also, my original statement about the "joke" was more directed at the institution of licensing those that wish to carry concealed. In my personal opinion, it is absolute horse****. If my firearm is carried in plain view, nothing is required except that I be a non-felon over the age of 21. Put my t-shirt over it, and suddenly I have to ask permission, pass a background check, get fingerprinted, and give the gov some more of my money.

And Not Jobless, you're exactly right they are YOUR rights, and YOU can do what you wish with them. I'd just like to make sure that MY kids still have these same rights because I didn't let the "Authority" refuse to acknowledge that I have said rights, so I exercise mine with extreme prejudice.

As for your last question sir, I've been issued a CAC for the last five years, five months, and twelve days as of this posting, and have had my CPL for two years, two months and nineteen days. I have been pulled over several times in that quantity of times, and have shown both of those cards exactly ZERO times. Guess what, still don't have any tickets :fawkdancesmiley:

 

[whatthe?]

Right, but they still have to have probably cause in order to ask you for it. IE spotting your concealed weapon, etc. If you just hand it over because they randomly asked you for it, you have surrendered your personal liberty at that time.

That's not what the RCW states, as part of the condition of a CPL, if asked by a cop, and you have it with you, you are required to show it. If not carrying a gun you could say you don't have it with you. CPL is considered a privilege not a right


Using your CPL/CAC to help you "get out of jail free" is a joke because you're asking for special treatment just because you have a "clean" record or have made a sacrifice through duty to our country. Face it, if the officer legitimately pulled you over for a real infraction. You deserve to be punished JUST LIKE EVERYBODY ELSE. Funny how everybody is all for equality until something a "good guy" screws up and gets popped for it.You've been pulled over many times, shouldn't you be punished like everybody else? Maybe his CPL and military ID didn't influence the cop either way, as you always got off with no extra ID's presented

Also, my original statement about the "joke" was more directed at the institution of licensing those that wish to carry concealed. In my personal opinion, it is absolute horse****. If my firearm is carried in plain view, nothing is required except that I be a non-felon over the age of 21. Put my t-shirt over it, and suddenly I have to ask permission, pass a background check, get fingerprinted, and give the gov some more of my money.

And Not Jobless, you're exactly right they are YOUR rights, and YOU can do what you wish with them. I'd just like to make sure that MY kids still have these same rights because I didn't let the "Authority" refuse to acknowledge that I have said rights, so I exercise mine with extreme prejudice.

As for your last question sir, I've been issued a CAC for the last five years, five months, and twelve days as of this posting, and have had my CPL for two years, two months and nineteen days. I have been pulled over several times in that quantity of times, and have shown both of those cards exactly ZERO times. Guess what, still don't have any tickets :fawkdancesmiley:

By the way, a cop can ask for ID, proof of insurance, ect. with out first telling you why he pulled you over (this doesn't break any laws). You're just not required to give it until he does. You have to exercise your rights but if you hand your stuff over, you made the choice. Just like a cop can ask anyone walking down the street for ID, people can say yes or no. Not illegal to ask.

 

[wentz912]

That's not what the RCW states, as part of the condition of a CPL, if asked by a cop, and you have it with you, you are required to show it. If not carrying a gun you could say you don't have it with you. CPL is considered a privilege not a right

I understand what the RCW states, what I DON'T understand is the level of ambiguity that the wording leaves on just when an LEO is permitted to ask for aforementioned CPL. I have a hard time believing that they could just walk up and ask for it out of the blue.

You've been pulled over many times, shouldn't you be punished like everybody else? Maybe his CPL and military ID didn't influence the cop either way, as you always got off with no extra ID's presented

If I was found to be breaking the law under conditions that were reasonably under my control, then yes, I most absolutely should be. Beyond that is completely under the stopping officer's control and judgement.

By the way, a cop can ask for ID, proof of insurance, ect. with out first telling you why he pulled you over (this doesn't break any laws). You're just not required to give it until he does. You have to exercise your rights but if you hand your stuff over, you made the choice. Just like a cop can ask anyone walking down the street for ID, people can say yes or no. Not illegal to ask.

From my understanding, asking for identification/other paperwork without probable cause or something along those lines is a pretty direct violation of due process.

Same reason that the inhabitants of cities with red light cameras have a pretty decent case to sue said cities over the use of the cameras, since most of them take a picture of the vehicle/license plate and not of the driver.

 

[Binder]

I understand what the RCW states, what I DON'T understand is the level of ambiguity that the wording leaves on just when an LEO is permitted to ask for aforementioned CPL. I have a hard time believing that they could just walk up and ask for it out of the blue.

You should believe it because it is the law. You do what you want just don't be suprised when it gets you in a jamb.:awesomework:

 

[crash2]

Why? You going to bring two sticks to a gun fight?

I could take ya :fawkdancesmiley:

 

[wentz912]

You should believe it because it is the law. You do what you want just don't be suprised when it gets you in a jamb.:awesomework:

Do you happen to have an RCW or similar stating such? I'm going to ask a few of the guys that work for the local sheriff's department their take on the subject. The ones I know are VERY well versed on this stuff.

 

[Binder]

Do you happen to have an RCW or similar stating such? I'm going to ask a few of the guys that work for the local sheriff's department their take on the subject. The ones I know are VERY well versed on this stuff.

Yeah it's the one I listed.
So... Why do you feel anyone loses their rights by showing documentation to a LEO? What rights are lost?

BTW often LEO's are not all that well versed on the law. They"re more versed on policy and what infractions they will write tickets for but that doesn't always align with the law. But we'd all like to hear what they have to say.:cheer:

 

[Not Jobless]

I could take ya :fawkdancesmiley:

To the Mocha stand maybe :haha::fawkdancesmiley:

 

[crash2]

To the Mocha stand maybe :haha::fawkdancesmiley:

If your buying :redneck:

 

[whatthe?]

From my understanding, asking for identification/other paperwork without probable cause or something along those lines is a pretty direct violation of due process.

There's a difference between asking and requiring ID/paperwork. Nothing illegal about cops asking, you can choose not to comply. If they force or try and require ID w/o probable cause, then they're in violation. Cops like to talk and ask questions, they're trained to do it.

 

[CHOP SHOP]

Why? You going to bring two sticks to a gun fight?

Ricks a ****in ninja, you wont even hear him **** the chucks before you die.

 

[ain'tstuckjustresting]

There's nothing sneaky about a red headed jigaboo......... :redneck:

 

[Not Jobless]

Ricks a ****in ninja, you wont even hear him **** the chucks before you die.

Yeah, I know...the internet is over run with Mall Ninja's

 

[Jaydog]

I've had one since '91 and the only time I was asked by an officer to see it was when my .44 was hanging below my jacket, but never in a traffic stop. My wife just got hers and it only took a week, so I wouldn't even suggest open carry without one.

 

[wentz912]

Yeah it's the one I listed.
So... Why do you feel anyone loses their rights by showing documentation to a LEO? What rights are lost?

BTW often LEO's are not all that well versed on the law. They"re more versed on policy and what infractions they will write tickets for but that doesn't always align with the law. But we'd all like to hear what they have to say.:cheer:

Not the RCW stating that the CPL must be shown when requested, whatever the one is that says they can just ask for it without probable cause.

Onto the other question. Police officers are in place to enforce the law, not to bully people into giving themselves up because the LEO "thinks" they did something wrong. Handing over your paperwork just because someone in uniform asks for it is darn near intimidation.

Also, you're very much correct. Most LEO's are TERRIBLE about actually knowing the laws they are supposed to be enforcing, and that's the sad truth. Funny story, was following one of the local guys in his cruiser the other day and I watched him commit four moving violations in less than a block :eeek: No lights, no siren, he was just making his rounds. Whether or not he knew any better is unknown to me, but I know he definitely did it!

However, the one deputy I have in mind actually still gives a rip about the oath he took when he joined the department, and follows it to the T.

 

[whatthe?]

[color=[/color]

not the rcw stating that the cpl must be shown when requested, whatever the one is that says they can just ask for it without probable cause. you still don't understand. They don't need a cause because a cpl is considered a privilege not a right, like a hunting license, a cop can always ask. It's your choice how you answer and uphold your rights.

onto the other question. Police officers are in place to enforce the law, not to bully people into giving themselves up because the leo "thinks" they did something wrong. Handing over your paperwork just because someone in uniform asks for it is darn near intimidation. only if you don't know your rights. Just because someone is ignorant of their rights doesn't protect them from the law or police asking for id, ect. Remember, asking violates nothing.

also, you're very much correct. Most leo's are terrible about actually knowing the laws they are supposed to be enforcing, and that's the sad truth. Funny story, was following one of the local guys in his cruiser the other day and i watched him commit four moving violations in less than a block :eeek: No lights, no siren, he was just making his rounds. Whether or not he knew any better is unknown to me, but i know he definitely did it!
agree!
.

^^^^