• Help Support Hardline Crawlers :

Open headers

onepieceatatime

I like turtles...
Joined
Nov 23, 2012
Messages
3,972
Location
Ohio
About to take my Juggy out on its first ride this weekend if I can get it finished up this week. One of the major things I have left is the exhaust. It's been one of the biggest thorns in my side because I always smashed the crossover pipes before and it lead to overheating issues. As it sits now it just has the open block hugger style headers on it. I would really like to get something different on it but I'm running out of time and I'm not sure what it's going to take to run something that will give me the clearance I need. I've had a few people tell me that running open headers will end up burning up the valves. It's just a stock sbc on propane. Anybody have any ideas or input on my problem? Will it hurt if I run it for a weekend on open headers or do I need to introduce some sort of back pressure. I see guys on here running straight headers in their bouncers but I don't know if those motors designed for it or not.
 
Most of the bouncers are running long tube headers that's how they get away with it! A stock motor will run better with back pressure if you don't have time to get exhaust ran you'll need atleast 18-20" from the head to tip so that it won't suck back up the exhaust.
 
muddinmetal said:
Have you look into exhaust inserts? They are a good way to quieten one down without running a lot of pipe

Or make your some. Take a washer or cut a plate to fit in your header and drills wholes in it to give it back pressure. Then tack it inside it about an inch in.

Old hot rodders and bike builders do it so why not a buggy. A stock motor is going to need back pressure.
 
What makes it burn up the valves is sucking in cold air, long tube headers don't tend to do this, shorty's will. What makes this happen is both the valves are open for a split second at the same time, and the piston is traveling down at this time which makes it pull thru the exhaust valve as well as the intake valve, this is also what is messing with a lot of buggys that run fuel injection with open headers, it pulls clean air back in past the oxygen sensor. You can go to an exhaust shop and get 3 90 degree bends and make a pipe that will tuck under the front sump on an oil pan and then run under the buggy pretty easy.
 
I made these to put on the ends of my 180s. They probably won't do **** for quietning them down but will add some back pressure and kill some of the open header derby car crappy sound.
 

Attachments

  • 998472_10202067736196999_1667284829_n.jpg
    998472_10202067736196999_1667284829_n.jpg
    77.2 KB · Views: 121
  • 1174538_10202067742037145_983794845_n.jpg
    1174538_10202067742037145_983794845_n.jpg
    75.1 KB · Views: 122
Thanks for the help. Found some headers that should help get the exhaust to at least dump around the trans instead of straight down like the block huggers. If I can get the pipes routed like that then I will put inserts in the collectors. Thanks for the input this has been one of my biggest concerns on this build and of course I waited till 24 hours before I leave to do anything more then think about it


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
I copied this from another board. It helps explain exhaust system and the misconception of Backpressure

There is a common misconception that engines need backpressure in order to run properly, generate low end torque, etc. That is simply untrue. Backpressure is a bad thing. Always. Take a look at a top fuel dragster...how much backpressure do you think those zoomie headers make? Very little, and those engines produce 6500 hp.

So, what is backpressure? Any fluid flowing through a pipe experiences drag on the walls of the pipe. This depends on a number of factors, including the diameter of the pipe, the smoothness of the inside of the pipe, the viscosity of the fluid, and the velocity of the fluid. This drag results in a pressure drop through the pipe. In order for the fluid to flow at all, the pressure on one end of the pipe must be higher than at the other. In an exhaust system, that pressure drop is what we refer to as backpressure. It's pretty obvious that the engine has to produce this pressure differential, so the less power it has to spend making pressure to push the exhaust out, the more power it can send to the wheels.

Given that exhaust pipes are pretty smooth, and that we can't change the viscosity (thickness) of the waste gas being forced through the pipes, we are left with basically 2 parameters we can have any control over: The pipe diameter and the gas velocity.

Unfortunately, the pipe diameter controls the gas velocity since the volume of gas is prescribed by the engine. So, we really only have one thing we can change. So, bigger pipes allow less pressure drop for a given volume of gas because the velocity is lower. The pressure drop (backpressure increase) is proportional the gas velocity squared, so if I double the gas velocity (by reducing the cross sectional area of the exhaust pipe by half) then I quadruple the pressure drop.

Well, there's an easy solution for that: Just make the exhaust pipe bigger. Bigger pipe, lower gas velocity, less pressure drop, so less backpressure. Wow, that was easy. After all, this is the way it's done for basically any type of commercial plumbing system. Need less pressure drop on a chilled water pipe or a natural gas line? Just make the pipe bigger.

But wait, there's a problem....Having a huge exhaust pipe has killed my low end torque!!! What's different? Oh, there's no backpressure!! Therefore backpressure makes torque!

Wrong.

An exhaust system is different than just about any other plumbing situation. How? Because the flow is pulsed, and this turns out to be a big deal. Every time a pulse of exhaust gas runs through the pipe, a strange thing happens: it as it passes, it has a little area of vacuum behind it. Just like a NASCAR stocker running around the track, the pulse generates a little bit of a vacuum behind it. In NASCAR, a driver can take advantage of another driver's vacuum by getting right behind him and driving in it. The wind resistance is drastically reduced. This is called drafting.

Well, how big the vacuum behind each pules is depends on the gas velocity. The higher the velocity, the bigger the vacuum the pulse has behind it.

Now, this means that I can "draft" the next pulse, just like in NASCAR. In NASCAR, it's called drafting, in an exhaust system, it's called scavenging. You've probably seen this term used when talking about headers, but the same concept applies in the pipe.

I get the maximum scavenging effect if the gas velocity is high, so the pipe needs to be small. By maximizing the scavenging effect, I help to pull pulses out of the combustion chamber, which means the engine doesn't have to work as hard to do that.

This has the most effect when there's a bunch of time between pulses...in other words, at low rpm. As the revs rise, the pulsed flow becomes more and more like constant flow, and the scavenging effect is diminished.

So, at low rpm I need a small pipe to maximize scavenging, and at high rpm I need a big pipe to minimize pressure drop. My exhaust pipe can only be one size, so it's a compromise. For a given engine, one pipe diameter will make the most overall power (i.e., have the largest area under the curve on a dyno chart).

So, the loss of torque has nothing to do with backpressure, and everything to do with gas velocity. So you need exhaust components that are not restrictive (manifolds/headers, mufflers) and that are sized correctly for your application.

To further dispel the "backpressure is necessary" theory, try this if you want. If you have access to a vehicle with open headers, make a block off plate that will bolt to the collector. This plate should have only a 1" hole in it for the exhaust to flow through. That will give you PLENTY of backpressure, and zero scavenging. Then you can report back on how much low end power it has.

The one exception to sizing an exhaust is for turbo cars. Since the turbo is in the exhaust stream, the gas flow spinning the impeller tends to come out of the turbo with the pulses greatly diminished. In this case, you can get away with running a larger pipe than on an equivalent HP N/A engine because you can't take as much advantage of the scavenging effect.
 
it's good that someone took a lot of time to write this. It's wrong, this also depends on the cam overlap. high over lap cam can help pull gasses as explained but only at high rpm "flow"
low rpm will cause lower cylinder pressures" lower Compression" lower low end. I can give a easy example a stock Toyota 22r needs backpressure. try it with no muffler you will loose 25% of your hp. but I changed to a lower overlap cam, I hope back pressure is not needed so much.. This also will allow for higher cylinder pressures at low rpm and is a must for turbo and supercharger applications . who ever rote this is very closed minded. must only work on one kind of motor in only one configuration. There are just to many variables to make such a blanket statement. every motor design and use is different. This is why there is so many parts to choose from and people dyno testing every one.
no offence Pumpkin as stated you got this from another site.
 
Your are right about cam overlap. But most people running open exhaust have large cams and run their engines at high RPM's. I do think it is more the size of the tubing than backpressure. Most 22re run one size with a muffler, take the muffler out and you would have to go down in size to help with the scavenging. Most people have to large of exhaust pipe on their 4 cyl engines any way. It is all about how you use one cylinder to pull gasses from another. That is why 180* headers work so well (at higher RPM's). A lot of dirt track racers have switch to a tri-Y header. Because it helps with not only high RPM's but also with Mid-range. My yota has a 406 on propane and block hugger headers. it has 2.5in into a single 3in with a little resonator on the end. Does real good to about 5000 rpms. That is where the propane runs out and just about the max on the cam. So all in all it works for me. If I was turning 7000 plus I would not be using block huggers or a single exhaust.
 
Pumpkin said:
I copied this from another board. It helps explain exhaust system and the misconception of Backpressure

There is a common misconception that engines need backpressure in order to run properly, generate low end torque, etc. That is simply untrue. Backpressure is a bad thing. Always. Take a look at a top fuel dragster...how much backpressure do you think those zoomie headers make? Very little, and those engines produce 6500 hp.

So, what is backpressure? Any fluid flowing through a pipe experiences drag on the walls of the pipe. This depends on a number of factors, including the diameter of the pipe, the smoothness of the inside of the pipe, the viscosity of the fluid, and the velocity of the fluid. This drag results in a pressure drop through the pipe. In order for the fluid to flow at all, the pressure on one end of the pipe must be higher than at the other. In an exhaust system, that pressure drop is what we refer to as backpressure. It's pretty obvious that the engine has to produce this pressure differential, so the less power it has to spend making pressure to push the exhaust out, the more power it can send to the wheels.

Given that exhaust pipes are pretty smooth, and that we can't change the viscosity (thickness) of the waste gas being forced through the pipes, we are left with basically 2 parameters we can have any control over: The pipe diameter and the gas velocity.

Unfortunately, the pipe diameter controls the gas velocity since the volume of gas is prescribed by the engine. So, we really only have one thing we can change. So, bigger pipes allow less pressure drop for a given volume of gas because the velocity is lower. The pressure drop (backpressure increase) is proportional the gas velocity squared, so if I double the gas velocity (by reducing the cross sectional area of the exhaust pipe by half) then I quadruple the pressure drop.

Well, there's an easy solution for that: Just make the exhaust pipe bigger. Bigger pipe, lower gas velocity, less pressure drop, so less backpressure. Wow, that was easy. After all, this is the way it's done for basically any type of commercial plumbing system. Need less pressure drop on a chilled water pipe or a natural gas line? Just make the pipe bigger.

But wait, there's a problem....Having a huge exhaust pipe has killed my low end torque!!! What's different? Oh, there's no backpressure!! Therefore backpressure makes torque!

Wrong.

An exhaust system is different than just about any other plumbing situation. How? Because the flow is pulsed, and this turns out to be a big deal. Every time a pulse of exhaust gas runs through the pipe, a strange thing happens: it as it passes, it has a little area of vacuum behind it. Just like a NASCAR stocker running around the track, the pulse generates a little bit of a vacuum behind it. In NASCAR, a driver can take advantage of another driver's vacuum by getting right behind him and driving in it. The wind resistance is drastically reduced. This is called drafting.

Well, how big the vacuum behind each pules is depends on the gas velocity. The higher the velocity, the bigger the vacuum the pulse has behind it.

Now, this means that I can "draft" the next pulse, just like in NASCAR. In NASCAR, it's called drafting, in an exhaust system, it's called scavenging. You've probably seen this term used when talking about headers, but the same concept applies in the pipe.

I get the maximum scavenging effect if the gas velocity is high, so the pipe needs to be small. By maximizing the scavenging effect, I help to pull pulses out of the combustion chamber, which means the engine doesn't have to work as hard to do that.

This has the most effect when there's a bunch of time between pulses...in other words, at low rpm. As the revs rise, the pulsed flow becomes more and more like constant flow, and the scavenging effect is diminished.

So, at low rpm I need a small pipe to maximize scavenging, and at high rpm I need a big pipe to minimize pressure drop. My exhaust pipe can only be one size, so it's a compromise. For a given engine, one pipe diameter will make the most overall power (i.e., have the largest area under the curve on a dyno chart).

So, the loss of torque has nothing to do with backpressure, and everything to do with gas velocity. So you need exhaust components that are not restrictive (manifolds/headers, mufflers) and that are sized correctly for your application.

To further dispel the "backpressure is necessary" theory, try this if you want. If you have access to a vehicle with open headers, make a block off plate that will bolt to the collector. This plate should have only a 1" hole in it for the exhaust to flow through. That will give you PLENTY of backpressure, and zero scavenging. Then you can report back on how much low end power it has.

The one exception to sizing an exhaust is for turbo cars. Since the turbo is in the exhaust stream, the gas flow spinning the impeller tends to come out of the turbo with the pulses greatly diminished. In this case, you can get away with running a larger pipe than on an equivalent HP N/A engine because you can't take as much advantage of the scavenging effect.

Just like when I used to build VW engines back in the 70's. We loved the thunderbird stinger exhaust as it used a megaphone type stinger and you could tell the increase of HP running it. As the gases exited the stinger the pipe, it created a stronger vacuum as it expanded before the exit of the stinger.

Only real down side to it was that it was very loud and could crack an eardrum revving out a 2180 to 7k. It's no wonder why I can't hear anything much anymore. Lol.
 
Top