Coilover Spring Setup/tune

TacomaJD · Nov 14, 2016

Re:

Man that sucks!

kmcminn · Nov 14, 2016

If you are going to revalve. Change out the bodies while you are doing it. Im not sure about your name brand but the fix bodies are relatively cheap.

onetoncrawler · Nov 14, 2016

kmcminn said:
If you are going to revalve. Change out the bodies while you are doing it. Im not sure about your name brand but the fix bodies are relatively cheap.

that's what I would suggest also. If you do this make sure to replace all wear items in the shocks, then they would be good as new for low cost. I can help you rebuild them if needed. I took mine apart after every race. It's only scary the first time :****:

zayne2427 · Nov 14, 2016

onetoncrawler said:
that's what I would suggest also. If you do this make sure to replace all wear items in the shocks, then they would be good as new for low cost. I can help you rebuild them if needed. I took mine apart after every race. It's only scary the first time :****:

i may have to do that let me do some more research and figure out what valving i need for them and get rebuild kits and all of the parts i need for them and ill probably have to holla at you. ive gotten pretty good with swapping the springs out. i can do them all in with about 15 min with either my wife or brother on the tractor holding the buggy up. ha

kmcminn said:
If you are going to revalve. Change out the bodies while you are doing it. Im not sure about your name brand but the fix bodies are relatively cheap.

they are Sway A Way Racerunner 16' remote reservoir. SAW sold their shock line to AFEpower wich services SAW however when calling to get tech they literally have zero answers and the one Tech support guy they have has been out of the office everytime i call. I know i can get rebuid kits such as seals, valves, dual rate sliders, spring seats, coil retailers, and such, but other than that i am not sure what all other parts of the actual shock you can get. not sure about the shafts, body, or end caps

zayne2427 · Nov 14, 2016

Front full droop
Springs extended 34" with 16 1/2" shaft showing

At ride height
Measures 25 1/2 " with 8 1/2" shaft showing

Rears are at 24 7/8 with weight on them and figure the extended lengths are the same or close to it but will measure for sure after dinner.

If I remove all of the tender coils which measure 3/4 of am inch counting the retainer with it it will put my ride height exactly where I need to be. Now just to figure out the spring rates I need

-i come up with 728.5 per corner on the front and
547.5 per corner on the rear

Rjhoward32006 · Nov 17, 2016

valving the shocks can help a lot with body roll also, byt depends on what kind of wheeling you will be doing. general trail set-ups are wayyy different than say someone hitting things with speed and racing

TacomaJD · Nov 17, 2016

Rjhoward32006 said:
valving the shocks can help a lot with body roll also, byt depends on what kind of wheeling you will be doing. general trail set-ups are wayyy different than say someone hitting things with speed and racing

Yup, just my uneducated observation, but generally it seems trail rigs are set up a little more stiffer (stable) with no sway bar, but go-fast rigs are set up so soft to soak up bumps and jumps at higher speeds that they aren't as stable in off camber situations which is why you see most of them also running sway bars. I used to think of sway bars as a no-no, but if it helps you get the best of both worlds and you still get the suspension travel you desire after installing one, then there's nothing wrong with that!

Rjhoward32006 · Nov 18, 2016

TacomaJD said:
Yup, just my uneducated observation, but generally it seems trail rigs are set up a little more stiffer (stable) with no sway bar, but go-fast rigs are set up so soft to soak up bumps and jumps at higher speeds that they aren't as stable in off camber situations which is why you see most of them also running sway bars. I used to think of sway bars as a no-no, but if it helps you get the best of both worlds and you still get the suspension travel you desire after installing one, then there's nothing wrong with that!

Agree 100%

zayne2427 · Nov 19, 2016

Been reading like crazy. A bunch of good info from Wayne and other guys here. I'll get the big girl dialed . May go with a little lighter spring and heavier valving to slow down the body roll as several of you had recommended .
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/general-4x4-discussion/1074029-spring-tech-thread.html#/topics/1074029?_k=6jttu6&nocache=1479568570063

mac5005 · Nov 19, 2016

Use the dual rate crossover ring to Tune out the body roll. This is why you want a heavier main spring and lighter secondary spring.

That way when the body rolls an inch or so, the spring rate jumps up to the main spring rate only to combat body roll.

Start with it about 2" above the slider at ride height and lower it little by little until you get rid of most of the body roll. You will notice if it's too low. I start with the rear and then the front, as typically you notice body roll worse in seat from the rear.

Don't just use valving to tune out body roll or your low speed valving will be so stiff it will knock your teeth out in the small trail bumps, and will "pack in " the suspension badly over small washboard type bumps.

Generally. Valving won't affect body roll, it can slow it some, but it will still happen.

Using valving to tune out body roll will make the ride quality worse.

zayne2427 · Nov 19, 2016

mac5005 said:
Use the dual rate crossover ring to Tune out the body roll. This is why you want a heavier main spring and lighter secondary spring.

That way when the body rolls an inch or so, the spring rate jumps up to the main spring rate only to combat body roll.

Don't just use valving to tune out body roll or your low speed valving will be so stiff it will knock your teeth out in the small trail bumps, and will "pack in " the suspension badly over small washboard type bumps.

Generally. Valving won't affect body roll, it can slow it some, but it will still happen.

Using valving to tune out body roll will make the ride quality worse.

Correct. It should slow it down from where I'm at now I removed my tender coils last night and adjusted my dual rate stops and preload last night going to see how she reacts today before I start figuring out the valving. Last time I rode dual rates were set at about 2.5 " I've got them both down below 1" and I know that will be a large part of it. Positive I'm going to have to re valve as well though.

Played a lil around the house after adjustments and getting better for sure. Have dual rate sliders within 1/2" front amd rear and body roll doesn't feel like it's going to throw you out. Slower and not as much for sure. Still able to hit stuff at speed. Now I just need to log some milea

mac5005 · Nov 19, 2016

zayne2427 said:
Correct. It should slow it down from where I'm at now I removed my tender coils last night and adjusted my dual rate stops and preload last night going to see how she reacts today before I start figuring out the valving. Last time I rode dual rates were set at about 2.5 " I've got them both down below 1" and I know that will be a large part of it. Positive I'm going to have to re valve as well though

That calculator I posted earlier in the thread will help you a bunch with rates. It also has a chart listed with combinations of rates and the combined initial rate of pairs.

You want 1-2" of preload to get some spring force at full droop. This will effectively make the rebound valving lighter.

If you have less than that preload, you need softer springs, if you have more than that amount of preload, you need heavier springs. 50-100 lbs split between the spring rates is great for getting rid of the body roll as much as doable with the springs.

Get the springs all correct first before doing anything with valving.

Change one thing at a time.

This is all a regurgitation of Wayne's spring theory that works. Seen and experienced it first hand.

The trouble with really light long springs is they start to bow and rub the shock body.

This is why you see people moving towards link mounted shocks with a mechanical disadvantage through the motion ratio.

Moving the shocks would allow you to run a stiffer spring, with correct preload, and keep the same ride height.

I'm not saying you should do that, just posting the knowledge for tech in this thread.

For everyone following along, having preload give you a more linear spring force curve from full bump to full droop.

No preload equates to much more spring force at bump and zero at full droop. This is a pain to tune, and generally results in the suspension packing in. This means the axle can't rebound fast enough between the bumps.

The preload helps to push the axle away in rebound so that there is travel available to soak up the next bump.

Sorry for the long post, just trying to help anyone that comes across this thread while trying to improve their suspension.

Edit:

Here is link to calculator again.

http://metalwerxdesign.com/files/springcalculatorv2.xlsx

zayne2427 · Nov 19, 2016

Man I really appreciate you taking the time to help out. I know you spoke about the calculator but don't think it actually got posted.
I've read until. Blue in the face and feel like I'm finally starting to understand everything a little more. I've owned a ton of rigs but never really tried to get one dialed in. Habent ever had anything I had planned to keep for a while. As it sits I still need lighter springs (at least uppers) to be able to get my ride height down and still be able to get some preload.
Currently 150/200 front and 100/150 rear. Planned to drop to a 125/200 front and(not sure on the rear. But noone keeps 25lb increments in stock and PAC is 4 weeks out on getting springs shipped. Going to keep messing and adjusting with the springs I have and eventually get it figured out.
Either way it's come a long way since I first got it with the airshocks and 25"+ belly height. Completely different Buggy now.

r47 · Nov 20, 2016

For what it's worth, PAC springs were cheaper for me to order through summit than direct as long as orange was ok. They also have shipping delays listed on some, but they typically beat the estimated eta. The stupid part is they actually drop ship from the next county over but of course if I buy direct I pay shipping and tax too.

May be worth a look...

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/rsc-pac16x25x125/overview/

zayne2427 · Nov 20, 2016

I talked with accutune, EOR, WOD... most carry spring is 50lb increments and had those in stock. But any 25lb increment springs would have to be ordered. I'll check and see what they got but def don't want orange. Thanks for the info though

kmcminn · Nov 20, 2016

I have ordered 150 175 and 200 from WOD and get them two days later. Worked out pretty good for me.

zayne2427 · Nov 20, 2016

kmcminn said:
I have ordered 150 175 and 200 from WOD and get them two days later. Worked out pretty good for me.

I was mainly talking about PAC springs. Everything I've read they have the most options for 16-18" springs. What brand springs are you running

kmcminn · Nov 20, 2016

zayne2427 said:
I was mainly talking about PAC springs. Everything I've read they have the most options for 16-18" springs. What brand springs are you running

QA1 "Made in the USA"

They are silver in color.

zayne2427 · Nov 20, 2016

Yeah they have 16"100 and 150 but don't think they do 18"

TRD · Nov 20, 2016

PAC has the best selection of good quality springs available and I usually have all popular rates on the shelf in nearly every increment. But PAC just moved from Michigan to North Carolina and they have a large back order. We are work hard together to rebuild the inventory, but until then it's slim pickings. Sorry to put all of you out, looking forward to having this in the rear view.