Elbe Busywild update

Yeah, but times have changed. I don't think it is fair Alot of people have bigger rigs now. You guys are slowly taking our right away. They don't make flat fender, high hood quads anymore. :beatdeadhorse:

Porter makes some excellent points. The argument could go the other way just as easy, they don't make tight technical trails for buggies like yours anymore either.

The dirt bikers seem to get this better than we do. They want to have trails that are difficult for different types of bikes/riders. Variety is good.

Then there is the alternative, restrictions or closure. If you don't think that is reality, then keep sitting on your hands and don't get involved. Longfield, this was NOT addressed at you. Just a comment for everyone.
 
Yeah, but times have changed. I don't think it is fair Alot of people have bigger rigs now. You guys are slowly taking our rights away. They don't make flat fender, high hood quads anymore.

Is a Washington Drivers License a right or a privilege? The only reason I ask, is because a lot of folks have had their driving privilege's revoked. That said, is wheeling on non-private property a right or a privilege? I don't own that land. You don't own that land. Collectively, mayyyybbee, we can claim that we as citizens own some of that land. But that's no different than claiming we own the highways and byways. And they surely have laws and limitations on them.

So. Wheeling's a Privilege. And as such, yeah, unfortunately, we're going to have rules and regulations in order to play.

2cents.
 
i dont even know why i care, since i wont be running the busy anytime soon with my rig in its current form, DD and all. :redneck: its just that 109" seems awful short, especially considering that most spring lifts and SAS end up stretching the wheelbase of toyotas at least a little bit.
 
It is what it is........*****ing about them is going to do nothing on here. Make the meetings and see where that will take you.
 
As Brian said, it is what it is. 109" wheelbase seams reasonable to me, and it's good to see something being done to save the busy, as it looks like a kickass run. After seeing pictures of it, I know I wouldn't want to bring my 116" of wheelbase through it. Run the trails you fit, don't make the trails fit you
 
Porter makes some excellent points. The argument could go the other way just as easy, they don't make tight technical trails for buggies like yours anymore either.

The dirt bikers seem to get this better than we do. They want to have trails that are difficult for different types of bikes/riders. Variety is good.

Then there is the alternative, restrictions or closure. If you don't think that is reality, then keep sitting on your hands and don't get involved. Longfield, this was NOT addressed at you. Just a comment for everyone.

Ya i know what your saying. My buggy is a 106 wheel base but i don't take it there it gets to MUDDY, i take Misfit its about 100 also. It just doesn't seam fair for longer rigs. Yes we have gone to some of the meetings it doesn't seam like they listen. Just take TT scout it 116".
 
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As Brian said, it is what it is. 109" wheelbase seams reasonable to me, and it's good to see something being done to save the busy, as it looks like a kickass run. After seeing pictures of it, I know I wouldn't want to bring my 116" of wheelbase through it. Run the trails you fit, don't make the trails fit you

Well next will be Evans Creek, Naches then were will you go?
 
Well next will be Evans Creek, Naches then were will you go?


The difference being the entire busy is super tight. I know that my truck will be too wide/long to bring through it so I won't try. I'm just saying that there are people(I'm not directing this at anyone specific) that need to realize that their rig simply will not fit down a trail without destroying the truck, the trail, or both.
 
The difference being the entire busy is super tight. I know that my truck will be too wide/long to bring through it so I won't try. I'm just saying that there are people(I'm not directing this at anyone specific) that need to realize that their rig simply will not fit down a trail without destroying the truck, the trail, or both.

True, but fullsizes don't really fit all the way through the Naches. Take the mirror-notched tree for example. Which btw is growing, someone took some more out of it recently. :rolleyes:
 
The difference being the entire busy is super tight. I know that my truck will be too wide/long to bring through it so I won't try. I'm just saying that there are people(I'm not directing this at anyone specific) that need to realize that their rig simply will not fit down a trail without destroying the truck, the trail, or both.


The entire Busy isn't tight. In fact I don't remember much of it being tight at all. If someone wants to destroy their own rig it's their problem but destroying the trail is a different thing.
Also making new rules will solve nothing if nobody is out there to enforce them. Is someone going to be out there?
 
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So I want to ask aquestion here if that won't offend!
The width restiction I can understand
the length seems to be unofficial as terms of use go.
If a rig is over 109 and say 115 has the ability to turn tight (diggers blah blah) What would be the difference when the trail changes, and in elbe that seems to be very often. The trees in any case would ..I'll say get used.. for one purpose or another in the busy / winch/pivot...ect. Are you saying that A ticket would be issued for that particular act? Or that this is to be enforced to weed / thin the "General" wheelers to / from elbe?
In point I could shorten my wheel base and go to Elbe right? And as the legend goes you would still end up with body damage from just going through trails any how....so I see the real deal here, crews need to "OBTAIN" $ for cleaning cost. Just like the police do for the city and court systems. And what was that about street legal? that might mean that your ORV tag on a NON street legal rig would not be useful anymore in WA:beer: ?


This has nothing to do with raising any money. As Nancy put it to me yesterday, "she's not allowed to give tickets for stupidity." Someone taking a rig where they simply don't belong and doing unneccesary damage as a result can get away with it because there simply are not posted rules. This restriction will give her the teeth to write tickets to some folks for plain stupdity. She will be able to give tickets for not using tree savers as well, since that will now be posted.

The street legal comment by someone was not accurate. You need to be legally licensed OR ORV tagged to be on USFS of DNR trail systems. Neither of which means street legal.
 
The entire Busy isn't tight. In fact I don't remember much of it being tight at all. If someone wants to destroy their own rig it's their problem but destroying the trail is a different thing.
Also making new rules will solve nothing if nobody is out there to enforce them. Is someone going to be out there?

Most of the main section of the busy is quite tight with a very spots to literally squeeze through for us larger rigs. The section that's been renamed the "easywild" is almost as long and not nearly so tight, so the long trail was split in two. The section with the restriction IS very tight.

A point here, what you and I may call tight, the DNR says is unacceptable. If we can climb a root ball, slide along the trunk or bounce off something, that's just tight. If you must rub a tree or affect the root structure of a tree, that's not acceptable by DNR standards. I think a LOT of you are missing the point. What you call fitting through and what the DNR accepts as fitting through, are simply not the same.

Yes and no on the enforcement Binder. Do we have cops on every highway enforcing every speeding ticket and at every stop light ticketing people who run red lights?

There are two people with enforcement ability, and Nancy is off fighting fires for a good part of the summer. That leaves the DNR cop who has thousands of acres to cover and no off road vehicle - I believe he drives and explorer. I do believe there is a move to get a DNR enforcement office on a quad or most likely a bike to keep on eye on the trails. The emphasis is to look for people intentionally damaging trails or breaking rules, such as making bypasses. People have been winching huge stumps out of the way that have intentionally been put in place to prevent access to bypasses. These are the EASY bypasses. These are the ones were the bypass has become worse than the trail. When you start taking some ownership of the trails by coming out to work parties and getting involved, you take that kind of action a little more personally since it was your labor that went to fixing the bypass in the first place.

If they get the funding they've requested for the enforcement office and the trail bike, you can expect a lot more enforcment of the rules. If that doesn't get passed then it'll probably be Nancy dealing with people who are stuck and broken on the trail because the went where the didn't belong.

She does frequently walk the trails to keep an eye on conditions and if she sees someone other causing problems you're likely to get fined. That's part of her job.

We need to self-police as has been said many time, many places. If you got a rig on your group that doesn't fit, or isn't capable, too big OR too small. Park it, give them a ride and all have fun, then go run another trail more suited to their rig.

We've got a wide range of vehicles in our club from a pretty much stock CJ on 31s and a small lift and a stock Dodge Dakota, to a few very well built rigs, 8 of which are locked front and rear and all run 35" tires or larger with winches. We've parked guys before and told that to hop in and hang on tight. I let one of my guys drive my rig for half of the trail on 197 at Evan's Creek because his wasn't suited to the ride. He busted a window out but other than that, it was all good!

Breaking a vehicle is irrelevant to a point. And that is that removing the damaged vehicle, espeically on a trail like the Busy is VERY difficult and in itself can cause extensive damage to the trail. Pulling a rig that's not under its own power through the busy is just a giant mess waiting to happen. We've seen many such stories on this board.
 
or affect the root structure of a tree,
So that pretty much rules out the entire area under every tree out to the drip line, because that's how far out the root structure goes.


Some visiting foreigner put it best. We have way too many stupid rules in this country. :looser:
 
Well next will be Evans Creek, Naches then were will you go?

Longfield, I know you've probably been lurking :) but I want to clarify. This is only 1 section of 1 trail and we are getting to make a brand new trail (revamping the Rainier Vista) to replace the lost mileage of hardcore trail. That trail and the rock crawl area at the end of the 9 road will NOT have any maximum sizes, in fact, we're probably going to get complaints from the smaller rigs that they can use that trail anymore because they're not big enough.

We've not lost an entire park, we've only limited trail access to one part of one trail, there's still plenty of park to play in. I realize that for many it's the most fun part of Elbe Hills. So gather your resources and come out and help when it's time to build the rock crawl section and destroy the Rainier Vista and make it a trail with a difficulty level similar to the busy.

Evan's Creek and the Naches are already on the hit list with the USFS national forest plan. Just wait until that comes through. I bet you'll think that 82" wide, 109" long an NO tire size restrictions is going to sound absolutely HUGE compared to what they're likely to do.
 
Evan's Creek and the Naches are already on the hit list with the USFS national forest plan. Just wait until that comes through. I bet you'll think that 82" wide, 109" long an NO tire size restrictions is going to sound absolutely HUGE compared to what they're likely to do.
I was told last weekend by a wet side ranger that quads are not and never have been allowed on the naches. He seemed pretty horny about the "closed unless signed open" stuff too. They don't have a freaking clue what they're doing, no communication at all. :rolleyes:
 
I was told last weekend by a wet side ranger that quads are not and never have been allowed on the naches. He seemed pretty horny about the "closed unless signed open" stuff too. They don't have a freaking clue what they're doing, no communication at all. :rolleyes:

Now that's funny. I got tongue lashed by a sherrif because my kids had their quads out on the 72 road. He told me the only legal trail for them to be on WAS the Naches trail. I was darn sure that the sign at the entrance to the 72 road off of 410 said that you had to be ORV tagged OR street legal to be on that road, but maybe I read it wrong. I'll double check that sign next week when we go up there.
 
Now that's funny. I got tongue lashed by a sherrif because my kids had their quads out on the 72 road. He told me the only legal trail for them to be on WAS the Naches trail. I was darn sure that the sign at the entrance to the 72 road off of 410 said that you had to be ORV tagged OR street legal to be on that road, but maybe I read it wrong. I'll double check that sign next week when we go up there.

your right dale, the roads are off limits unless licensed and insured(street legal) but the trail is legal for anything with an ORV tag or license plate(street legal)
 
your right dale, the roads are off limits unless licensed and insured(street legal) but the trail is legal for anything with an ORV tag or license plate(street legal)

I was PRETTY sure that it said that the ROAD was legal if ORV tagged, but again, I may have misread what the sign said as we drove by it.

This cop was a blast though. He said we were OK to ride on our property (we're in Crystal Village 1 with an acre lot) and I was pretty sure that we weren't allowed there. Then he said that the is NO WHERE in the area that we can drive quads even if ORV tagged but get this. We could drive on someone else's property if we were ORV tagged. All 4 of the quads have current tags. Since when do we need ORV tags to drive on someone else's private property?

Anyway, way off topic for this thread.
 
As Nancy put it to me yesterday, "she's not allowed to give tickets for stupidity." Someone taking a rig where they simply don't belong and doing unneccesary damage as a result can get away with it because there simply are not posted rules. .

This is pure BS. Whether the rules are posted or not is only a courtesy to the users. LEO's can at any time issue fines for resourse damage...
Now how much time was invested in coming up with these "new" rules? How many fines could have been written in that time if the involved LEO's got off their ass and on the trail enforcing the rules that are already in place? Without proper enforcement they are wasting their time.
 
This is pure BS. Whether the rules are posted or not is only a courtesy to the users. LEO's can at any time issue fines for resourse damage...
Now how much time was invested in coming up with these "new" rules? How many fines could have been written in that time if the involved LEO's got off their ass and on the trail enforcing the rules that are already in place? Without proper enforcement they are wasting their time.

Sounds like you smelled the BS I was smelling. :haha:
 
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