Fords PSD vs Dodes Cummins..

[Alpine4x4]

I was wondering when someone would yell at me for that :haha:

5" down to 4" out right in front of the rear passenger tire. Sure get a lot of looks when I go blasting by:haha::redneck:

 

[redrocket1]

is And Fords ride like absolute **** unless you get an 05 or newer.

I agree and their turning radius was **** until they changed to coils upfront too. I'm not sure why the hung on to that shitty suspension setup for so long.

 

[Dusten]

http://www.big3diesel.com/73comparison.html
Compares all 3 and all three make their power in the exact same rpm ranges.
Here are the specs on the PSD and Cummins engines

6.0 L Specifications:
Displacement: 365 cubic inches, 6.0 liters
Configuration: V-8
Compression Ratio: 18.0:1
Bore: 3.74 inches
Stroke: 4.13 inches
Injection: Direct injection, Electro Hydraulic Generation Two (G2) injection technology
Aspiration: Single variable geometry turbocharger (VGT)
Valvetrain: Single gear driven camshaft, 4-valves per cylinder
Oil Capacity: 15 quarts
Weight: approx. 966 lbs
Horsepower (peak)*: 325 HP @ 3,300 RPM
Torque (peak)*: 570 lb-ft @ 2,000 RPM

6.4 L Specifications:
Displacement: 390 cubic inches, 6.4 liters
Configuration: V-8
Compression Ratio: 16.7:1
Bore: 3.86 inches
Stroke: 4.13 inches
Injection: Direct injection, high pressure common rail injection system
Aspiration: Twin sequential turbochargers
Valvetrain: OHV, 4 valves per cylinder
Oil Capacity: 15 quarts
Weight: approx. 1,150 lbs
Horsepower (peak)*: 350 HP @ 3,000 RPM
Torque (peak)*: 650 lb-ft @ 2,000 RPM

6.7 L Specifications:


Displacement: 408 cubic inches, 6.7 liters
Configuration: Inline 6 cylinder
Compression Ratio: 17.3:1
Bore: 4.21 inches
Stroke: 4.88 inches
Injection: Direct injection:
Electronically controlled Bosch high pressure common rail; 26,000 psi max.
Aspiration: Variable geometry turbocharger
Valvetrain: OHV, 4 valves per cylinder, solid lifter camshaft
Oil Capacity: 12 quarts
Weight: n/a
Horsepower: 350 HP @ 3,013 RPM
Torque: 650 lb-ft @ 1,500 RPM w/auto trans
610 lb-ft @ 1,500 RPM w/manual trans

5.9 L ISB Specifications:


Displacement: 359 cubic inches, 5.9 liters
Configuration: Inline 6 cylinder
Compression Ratio: 16.3:1, 17.2:1 (high output version)
Bore: 4.02 inches
Stroke: 4.72 inches
Injection: Direct Injection:
Electronically controlled Bosch VP44 rotary injection pump. Bosch high pressure common rail injection introduced for 2003 model year.

Aspiration: Holset turbocharger
Valvetrain: OHV, 4 valves per cylinder, solid lifter camshaft
Oil Capacity: 10 quarts
Weight: approx. 1,150 lbs
*Horsepower: 235 - 325 HP @ 2,900 RPM
*Torque: 460 - 610 lb-ft @ 1,600 RPM

5.9 L Specifications:


Displacement: 359 cubic inches, 5.9 liters
Configuration: Inline 6 cylinder
Compression Ratio: 17.0:1
Bore: 4.02 inches
Stroke: 4.72 inches
Injection: Direct Injection:
Bosch VE injection pump (1989-1993).
Bosch P7100 injection pump (1994-1998).
Aspiration: Holset turbocharger
Valvetrain: OHV, 2 valves per cylinder, solid lifter camshaft
Oil Capacity: 11 quarts
Weight: approx. 975 lbs
*Horsepower: 160 - 215 HP @ 2,500 RPM
*Torque: 400 - 440 lb-ft @ 1,600 RPM

Seriously? Do some of you even read your posts before hitting submit?

"they all make power in the exact same rpm range" REALLY? Looks to me like the CTD makes its peak torque 500 rpm lower than the PoS. Is it just me?

"Horsepower is the measure of work, torque is bullshit" REALLY? Well how bout this, we'll put my 300hp turbo toyota 4cylinder in your tow rig. It makes the same HP as your PS right? Should work fine, RIGHT? Come on man, that turbo toy motor is awesome but it sure as F$%K ain't gonna tow like a diesel. Horsepower is a contrived figure based off of torque, y'alls posted the formula yourselves, it was developed by tractor salesmen in the early 1900's to help them show farmers how much better the new tractors were than horses, torque is the only figure that really matters when pulling. CTD's make there torque lower and carry that peak dead flat til the rev limiter, which shows the potential that is inside... The stock motor is limited.

And last, an inline six has SEVEN main bearings vs. FIVE for an eight cylinder, which one is going to keep the crank from moving around better under big work conditions? (hint: the one with more bearings!)

I have personal experience with two PS trucks and two CTD trucks the first PS was a work truck that was always leaking or dropping accessory drive pullies until the lower end gave out. The second was a buddies truck that I towed with for a while, he traded it in and a week later the dealer called trying to go back on the deal because the lower end was going out.....

I did a shitload of research before I bought my first CTD. After alot of bullshit filtering I came away with the belief that the CTD was the more durable package than either the PS or duraturd. I loved that truck and only had one problem....VP44.... which after FASS never happened again. I really wish I still had that truck because my 6.7 CTD I really wonder if its going to be a durable ride, I already had a VGT replaced at 42k miles.....

Really, unmodified, the two motors will each most likely last and perform great. Just my experience says that stock 7.3 PS's < 5.9 CTD's.

weird... here's a V8 engine making torque at a mere 1600... but according to posts like yours that is impossible...
PS this picture is from fords website...

 

[Flat-Bed_3rd_Gen]

Like I said it's a deep subject for another thread. What you describe is break free torque and yes you need X amount of torque to turn the wheels from a dead stop. As well you need a minimum amount of torque to turn a wheel at any given RPM. As long as there is that minimum torque all is good. (Horse)Power is power low end or top end.....What tends to confuse people is at low RPMs a engine has more torque than horsepower so people assume it's the torque doing the work.
HP=(torque*RPM)/5252
Torque by itself isn't a motion it's a raw force. This raw force along with RPM is what makes HP. If it's moving it's measured in HP. Last I checked towing a trailer requires things to move.:redneck:
Deisel engines tend to make HP at a lower RPM range which accounts for the better fuel economy as well as other things. If you do the math you will see that in order to make HP at a lower RPM there has to be more torque.
HP is a measurement of getting something done while torque by itself does nothing.
Also remember that peak HP does no good in a tow rig if there is no way to keep the engine at peak HP. Running through the gears requires a range or RPM which is what's called the power band. If you can't operate the engine in the power band then the peak power does little good.
Clear as mud?

so I'm not a math whizz but wouldn't you still need a higher amount of engine "torque" for that equation to work???? i mean you have a motor with 250hp and 525lbsft vs a motor that has 325hp and 610lbs ft. Wouldn't the 610lbsft engine still produce more "torque"???? and then still be able to pull a hill better? Also for the "power band" you realize that the engine produces its most power at peak "torque" levels? run the whole power graph through the formula and it will drop a little after peak torque is reached... that is why diesel are run at lower rpms there is no need to run faster, why spin faster if nothing is gained?

Where will this thread turn next year when Dodge starts putting the V8 and V6 Cummins in rigs :corn:

Yes they are supposed to and i can't wait i want one, they are planning on putting it in the 1/2 ton trucks. Its supposed to be a smaller engine so the truck can handle it... At least that is what dodge is telling us

Every aftermarket programmer that I have contacted said that I couldn't use any of their stuff on my rig, for some reason the computer is different on the Cab and Chassis rigs, I've been emailing Edge and they don't have anything, BADP isn't even sure if their dpf delete will work on the C&C. :booo:

the c&c has a different exhaust system then the normal 6.7l. It passed as a commercial truck and fell under different emissions laws so all the computers are tuned a little different and this is also the reason for the power differences... this all changed in 2010 it is now the same powertrain.



for my 2 cents i prefer the Cummins, i like the inline 6 design where you have a cap on either side of any given rod, the fuel injection system is less complex, the turbo system is less complex... As for which one is better? you can't really compare them their not in the same league the v8 designed diesel is for "small" trucks as a "light duty" engine, the inline 6 is a work engine look at old case tractors what engine is in them? 5.9l case engine, which then later became the Cummins ISB, you cant compare them one was for work, one was for a truck

 

[Binder]

so I'm not a math whizz but wouldn't you still need a higher amount of engine "torque" for that equation to work???? i mean you have a motor with 250hp and 525lbsft vs a motor that has 325hp and 610lbs ft. Wouldn't the 610lbsft engine still produce more "torque"???? and then still be able to pull a hill better? Also for the "power band" you realize that the engine produces its most power at peak "torque" levels? run the whole power graph through the formula and it will drop a little after peak torque is reached... that is why diesel are run at lower rpms there is no need to run faster, why spin faster if nothing is gained?

250 HP vs 325 HP the 325 will have more power reguardless of the torque....Very rarely will the torque peak match the HP peak. Look at some dyno graphs..

... the v8 designed diesel is for "small" trucks as a "light duty" engine, .....

Where did you get this information......Also isn't this a tow rig forum? These engines are going into trucks right?

 

[Trailtoy1993]

Yes really. If you want to start another thread we can talk about this too....


If the Toy had the same RPM range then it would tow as well but we all know it has a much more limited power band. Again start your own thread if you wish.

you are the one who started posting the horsepower equation, so it is perfectly relevent to the discussion.

Your own statement is a perfect example of why this is relevent, "If the Toy had the same RPM range then it would tow as well but we all know it has a much more limited power band." Well, not exactly, my 3sgte makes power from 3000 rpm to 6000 rpm. My CTD makes it from 1500 to 3200 which is the narrower power band?

My point was simply that Torque at low RPM makes a better tow truck motor and since horsepower is simply a multiplication of torque times RPM it really does not mean much. I.e. a 425 cat makes 425HP but 1600lb-ft torque and it pulls 80,000 lbs all over the world. My old CTD made 425HP and 850 lb-ft and yeah it was great in a pick-up but I wouldn't want that motor in a semi but it had the same horsepower. Torque at low rpm is what makes a great tow truck motor.

"weird... here's a V8 engine making torque at a mere 1600... but according to posts like yours that is impossible..."

Where did I ever say that is impossible? I was simply reading the information posted by another forum member and pointing out that the CTD makes its torque lower than the Powerstrokes.... Isn't the new motor the scorpion? I am not familiar with the new ford diesel at all you will have to excuse me. And no it is not impossible at all, Ford gas V-8's have long time made great tow truck motors, its all about long stroke and port size!

I'm not bashing Fords at all I own two and I have almost bought a PS twice. This thread was all about Powerstroke vs. Cummins and I am simply stating why I believe CTD's are better. My personal experience comes from one ford and one international with PS's and two CTD dodges, as well as lots of friends with both CTD's and PS's that ask me for help with thier rigs. I'll stick to CTD's personally as I believe them to be slightly better, and not by much mind you, but enough.

 

[Binder]

This thread was all about Powerstroke vs. Cummins and I am simply stating why I believe CTD's are better..

Yes this thread is about PS vs Cummins so if you want to talk about the HP vs Torque issue start a new thread and I'll be glad to discuss it there. I suggest you first read the article attached earlier in this thread.

 

[Flat-Bed_3rd_Gen]

250 HP vs 325 HP the 325 will have more power reguardless of the torque....Very rarely will the torque peak match the HP peak. Look at some dyno graphs..



I know how to read a dyno graph... They both rarely match I know this. I'm just wondering how you still think that torque means nothing since it is the basis of said formula you provided... Which is also why they both rarely ever match you throw more rpm and the hp number grows exponentially... So hp is really just a false number and not an actual measure of "work"...


Where did you get this information......Also isn't this a tow rig forum? These engines are going into trucks right?

this information I got from chrsylers training classes. It was said about the new diesel they might put in the 1/2 tons... It was stated by the instructor that it is a light duty design... And real world experience

 

[Lucky Jeff]

I'm going to start hauling excavators with my Jeep. Power is power. :redneck:

 

[Binder]

I'm going to start hauling excavators with my Jeep. Power is power. :redneck:

This isn't the chatter box. Stay on topic or GTFO of my thread.:;

 

[benw1]

You all will probably laugh at me because I'm not going to say anything about power, torque, which one is more durable or any of that crapola.

I like the cummins better because it starts easy and quick with no glow plugs, as long as it is above 40 degrees you don't even have to wait for the intake heater to cycle. All the powerstrokes I've driven seem to have to crank for a long time, even after you wait for the glow plugs.

I like the cummins better because it takes off from a stop without having to rev the engine a bunch. The powerstroke seems to need to rev up to get moving.

I currently own a duramax because it has the cab configuration I wanted, its comfortable, and it drives nice. The 350 hp doesn't hurt my feelings either.

 

[benw1]

I forgot to mention I also like the cummins better because it has absolutely no relationship to International Harvester. Binder likes the powerstroke better because he is an IH fanboy.

 

[ain'tstuckjustresting]

Good point! Go on any PSD forum and see how many hard start problems are caused by a couple bad GP's, a bad GP relay, or IAH relays. Most of our 7.3's at work won't fire off w/o waiting on the GP's if its 50deg or lower. My "Duraturd" fires every time whether I wait or not.

 

[Binder]

Binder likes the powerstroke better because he is an IH fanboy.

Yeah I couldn't wait to ditch the IH boat anchor that was in my old scout.:haha::flipoff:
The companys that make this stuff doesn't make a **** of difference IMHO. IH years ago sold their tech to Case who went on to design what turned into a cummins 6 banger.....
I never said I liked the Powerstroke better I just like to argue and play devils advocate and it seems not too many people are on that side of the fence so.......
Now I'm going to go WAY out on a limb and say based on several factors that the PS 7.3 has more POTENTIAL for power after modifications than the Cummins 5.9. Yes go tell all the dyno fags I said they have been doing it all wrong.:stirpot::corn:

 

[ain'tstuckjustresting]

Yes, I understand the theory of "Devils Advocate" but that is just stupid. And I'm by no means partial to Cummins.

 

[Binder]

Yes, I understand the theory of "Devils Advocate" but that is just stupid. And I'm by no means partial to Cummins.

Why do you think it's stupid?

 

[ain'tstuckjustresting]

The only way a PS will hold more power than a Cummins is if you convince someone to let you put you 7.3 decal on a 5.9:spankme:

 

[Binder]

The only way a PS will hold more power than a Cummins is if you convince someone to let you put you 7.3 decal on a 5.9:spankme:

I don't agree. Read the other thread, understand what makes power and think about it.:;

 

[ain'tstuckjustresting]

What makes power is people spending insane amounts of money on parts to prove there truck is stronger. There are a ton of PS guys blowing money to run at dyno comps and very seldom are they winning if there are any 5.9's around. In my opinion the HPOP is a piss poor design regardless if it's a IH or a Cat engine.

 

[Lucky Jeff]

Now I'm going to go WAY out on a limb and say based on several factors that the PS 7.3 has more POTENTIAL for power after modifications than the Cummins 5.9. Yes go tell all the dyno fags I said they have been doing it all wrong.:stirpot::corn:

I know you want me out of your thread, but I don't give a ****.. You obviously know how to make the powerstroke work. So go do it or STFU.. You are stuck on "dyno fags".. Go to the track, See who is the fastest. And don't think for a second that the best powerstroke builders in the country haven't tried, and yet still come up short. I would absolutely love to see you PROVE that potential, since no one but you can.

:corn: