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Help with spring rates on c/o

Mortalis5509

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Jul 13, 2011
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Winder, GA
Re: Re:

30th6 said:
I don't know how to measure preload

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Shock fully extended. Once the springs start to compress from tightening the adjuster down on them. The ring right above that is the lock rig so the adjuster doesn't move.
 

TacomaJD

I LIKE CHEAP STUFF.....
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Oct 28, 2010
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kmcminn said:
Yes that's what they were from Fox. Near opposite of what I needed.

When I was trying to get my rear air shocks straightened out that came with the standard 30/90 valving, I read where some people had simply flipped the existing shim stacks to make it 90/30 and fixed their problem, but that was with the 2.0's before I bought those 2.5's from Brandon Dillon. Didn't need to mess with the 2.5's. Not sure if they had ever been revalved or not, but one was engraved 40/80 and the other was 40/70 (I bought a front and rear, as he only had 2 straight ones that came off his buggy). But air shocks are a little different than coilovers, I just like to keep a mental log of what works for everybody, initial and new & improved valving.
 

pachary

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Aug 3, 2009
Messages
369
If your shocks are as shipped from Fox, they seem to come backwards to what "we" use.

If the springs hold up your rig with proper preload, I'd bet money you need more like 70/50. Valving.

You could flip stacks, but the compression stack uses a bigger large shim than the rebound.

That's what's worked on my buggy.
 

kmcminn

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I'm not much of a welder but I'm a hell of a grind
pachary said:
If your shocks are as shipped from Fox, they seem to come backwards to what "we" use.

If the springs hold up your rig with proper preload, I'd bet money you need more like 70/50. Valving.

You could flip stacks, but the compression stack uses a bigger large shim than the rebound.

That's what's worked on my buggy.


I'm afraid it's not as simple as flipping the stacks. Some of the outside diameters are different on the compression and rebound valves. Best thing would be to call Alltech, Poly, someone that can sell you what you need. I tried lots of local shops to the southeast but no one that I talked to had anything different than stock valving on their shelves. Also if you have been running the shocks for a while you may want to think about changing your oil and wearable seals while inside of them.
 

Neal3000

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May 14, 2009
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Temple, GA
Imo the very best thing you could do to solve your issue is to post up on this thread, get your springs right per their guidlines, then work with Alltech to get your shims right.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/general-4x4-discussion/1074029-spring-tech-thread-28.html

ZukIzzy;14518668 said:
I use 100 different combinations of springs to get what I want out of a car. most would have a spring rate of about the same in general terms. I am not going to put a number I get quoted on later, been stung by that one before.

I will give these rules of thumb again. NONE of this is set in stone we will fudge it all from time to time but it is a good start.

lower spring 2" longer then shocl travel.
upper spring same as shock travel
try to keep the upper and lower springs within 100# of each other

2" to 3" of preload in the front.
2" of preload in the rear

your springs are too light if you have to use more preload to get ride height. and too heavy if you use less.

Few U4 cars use heavier then 250#lower for a reference.

wayne
 

pachary

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Aug 3, 2009
Messages
369
kmcminn said:
I'm afraid it's not as simple as flipping the stacks. Some of the outside diameters are different on the compression and rebound valves. Best thing would be to call Alltech, Poly, someone that can sell you what you need. I tried lots of local shops to the southeast but no one that I talked to had anything different than stock valving on their shelves. Also if you have been running the shocks for a while you may want to think about changing your oil and wearable seals while inside of them.


That's why I mentioned the large shim on the compression stack is one size larger in diameter. Google the fox valving chart. You can basically flip the stacks by just buying the large shim in the proper thickness for each shock. Let me know if this at least gets you in the right direction.
 

30th6

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Oct 24, 2011
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Location
florence al
Re:

I'm thinking I need some stiffer springs on the front just looking at how much I have to crank them down to sit at ride height. If that don't help, anyone in the Florence AL area know how to change the shims?

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TacomaJD

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Re: Re:

30th6 said:
I'm thinking I need some stiffer springs on the front just looking at how much I have to crank them down to sit at ride height. If that don't help, anyone in the Florence AL area know how to change the shims?

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I'd nearly bet money proper length springs and an increase of 25-50# per spring on your front shocks will get you where you are happy with the performance without having to fool with revalving and keep you off your bumps ao much. Do one thing at a time. It's clear your springs aren't right due to the weird lengths and how much preload they are currently set at, so start with them, then you can mess with valving if more tweaking is still desired.
 

TacomaJD

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Re:

Since the shock gurus are chiming in, I have a random question. Do people ever increase the shock oil weight in emulsion coilovers like they do in air shocks to increase damping, or does just playing with the valving emit enough change to usually fix the problem? Is there any reason not to do this in an emulsion coilover, like maybe increasing heat from using a thicker oil? Just curious.
 

stano

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Mar 9, 2012
Messages
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Just my .02, another vote for Alltech. Wayne is working for fox now and Chris is your man. I bought my springs from them, there is way more to them than just corner weight too. I had him re valve my shocks at KOH this year, and man o man does it work/ride better. I don't know what valving he actually used (it was what he called a bench tune, used for mainly rock crawlers), but made a huge difference. That's something I now see the value in paying the experts to help with.


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TRD

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Sep 3, 2015
Messages
189
Re:

TacomaJD said:
Since the shock gurus are chiming in, I have a random question. Do people ever increase the shock oil weight in emulsion coilovers like they do in air shocks to increase damping, or does just playing with the valving emit enough change to usually fix the problem? Is there any reason not to do this in an emulsion coilover, like maybe increasing heat from using a thicker oil? Just curious.

Sorry I'm late to the party.

We won't know if your rates are correct until we know your preload.
Measurments necessary to get the right springs:
Measure shaft at ride height
Measure tender coil height at ride height (if equipped)
Go to full droop
Measure tender coil height (if tender coil opens up)
Measure gap between tender coil and spring perch (if there is a gap)
If no gap or tender coil doesn't open, measure top cap to spring perch
Loosen perch until springs start to rattle around
Measure top cap to spring perch again
Measure piston rod showing

I don't recommend playing with oil viscosity, there are plenty of options available by working with the valving.
 

mobil1syn

SoCal
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Nov 1, 2015
Messages
13
cushmaneaglerider said:
Suspension side of Alltech shut down. No more Chris :'(

sadly this is true. the decision was made end of 1st qtr and i will be completely done the end of may. fox just consumed too much of waynes time to be involved in alltech, so he downsized and closed the suspension side of things. ill be around to answer questions and stir the pot.


as to the OP - springs rates sound in line, but without doing the math you dont know for sure. definitely need to get the front spring length situation corrected. the ride quality comments are inline with the valve codes you posted. so both items need to be addressed.
 

30th6

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Oct 24, 2011
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florence al
Re:

I put some 250x16 under the 200x 14s and it's a lot better. I can actually hit stuff with some speed. Thanks guys

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TacomaJD

I LIKE CHEAP STUFF.....
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Oct 28, 2010
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14,442
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Rainsville, AL
Re:

30th6 said:
I put some 250x16 under the 200x 14s and it's a lot better. I can actually hit stuff with some speed. Thanks guys

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Awesome sauce! Glad ya got it figured out!!
 

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