Rieter signage bypasses etc

[BigPaul]

The Noobie run thread is becoming a mess, lets all discuss the issues in this thread and not pollute any others with this discussion.

 

[NotMatt]

Well, let me put the 1st word in here and say if anyone hasn't been there already, check out http://www.reitertrailwatch.org and browse around the site and forums. This issue has been discussed quite a bit, though I have not been to any of the meetings lately and couldn't say what the exact status on trail signage is yet (maybe someone who knows can chime in).

 

[BigPaul]

So do you guys think signage is the answer? Or trail maintanence closing off bypasses? Both? In that case who decides what the legitimate lines are for the trails?

 

[Hip]

RTW and the Snohomish Co ORV group have discussed signs and they want us to do it but we want them to do it as mostly the biker guys are wanting them. so where the signage was left off as far as i know is the ball is in the ORV groups court. if and when they come up with signage we RTW will provide labor to help install them. DNR cant be involved as it is not an ORV park and therefore no funding is available.

From our point of view there are many many more miles of bike trails then the few 4X4 trails. Then the quad trails.

so quads and bikes can fit on 4x4 trails so they can go everywhere, 4x4s dont fit on quad trails or bike trails so in my mind the quad trails and bike trails need to be marked and everything left is open to everyone.

no good answer on the bypasses, in MHO there should be bypasses for the very difficult obstacles so the newbies can see and learn but not destroy thier rigs trying something they cant make.

with that said i think the bypasses should be made with soil conservation and runnoff in mind but they should be allowed when possible.

everyone likes a challenge and everyones challenge level is different. as we gain experiance and more mods to the rigs that level goes up.

i like to see stuff that is over my challenge level so i have stuff to look forward to and what mods are required to get there. if i never got to go on that trail cause its too hard id never be able to advance my challenge level.

 

[KarlVP]

Ron Whitehall said that he had the resources in place to start building some guardians with gates.

Has anyone done any follow up on this? I do plan on attending the next RTW meeting, as I have heard, we just need to meet with him and say this is where we should put them. And assist with the construction.

I know it is a busy time for us all with wheeling, maintenance, and trail maintenance, but I think RTW should contact him and set this up.

Lets do it. He sounded VERY enthusiastic when we talked to him at the Reiter Cleanup. We just need to give it the final nudge with a date and place to start.

 

[Not Jobless]

So do you guys think signage is the answer? Or trail maintanence closing off bypasses? Both? In that case who decides what the legitimate lines are for the trails?

Both are required.

The problem is that the DNR is not "offically" involved yet so obtaining approriate signs will be difficult at best.

The best we can do is police ourselves & continue to educate.

The legitimate line would be the original line...but what line gets used after the DNR gets involved eventually will be another story.

 

[Hip]

Ron Whitehall said that he had the resources in place to start building some guardians with gates.

Has anyone done any follow up on this? I do plan on attending the next RTW meeting, as I have heard, we just need to meet with him and say this is where we should put them. And assist with the construction.

I know it is a busy time for us all with wheeling, maintenance, and trail maintenance, but I think RTW should contact him and set this up.

Lets do it. He sounded VERY enthusiastic when we talked to him at the Reiter Cleanup. We just need to give it the final nudge with a date and place to start.

Karl you have to remember something when dealing with DNR. they make lots of unfulfilled promises. i surely would not hold my breath for them to do it.

 

[Hip]

Both are required.

...but what line gets used after the DNR gets involved eventually will be another story.

agreed and i dought most of the original line of sackup would be allowed cause its next to water runoff or crosses water. not to say we could not work with them when the trail building and layout starts to maintain difficulty and address soil conservation and runoff..

but lets face it. how many of you are actually challenged by say evans creek, walker valley, tahua? once it reaches ORV status look for paving of trails so everyone can use them. or would it be better to keep bypasses for the difficult sections so the difficult sections remain difficult?

me i like difficult but as built as my rig is i cannot make every line every time. i do have a winch and not afraid to use it but if all bypasses are removed the trails will become paved.

 

[KarlVP]

Karl you have to remember something when dealing with DNR. they make lots of unfulfilled promises. i surely would not hold my breath for them to do it.

Has ANYONE talked to him since the cleanup?

After talking to Steve out a Elbe, it isn't that hard to work with the DNR. It just seems like there is so much red tape involved out here. Steve doesn't seem to have a problem with it. He does, however, put a lot of his personal time and effort into it.

Who is the RTW focal person? Did they know that Ron said what he said? I guess we could accredit some of the blame to me as well, I never followed up, I just waited for someone else to do it.

That's our problem here folks. There are too many indians and not enough Chiefs.

Who talks to Ron? Who is in charge of the signs? Who is in charge of the trail maps? Who is in charge of trail maintenance? Who is in charge of keeping people educated? Not me. I thought someone else was doing it. I don't know who, but they will take care of it eventually. Until then, I will wheel up there and watch as everyone else takes care of keeping the area I play in open for me.

A little aside, Every time I step up and tell the wheeling public, that I am interested in taking on some responsiblity for these areas, I get my **** slapped and am told that "this guy is doing it, talk to him" I talk to these individuals, they give me the run around, and nothing gets accomplished. It pisses me off.

I am currently talking with Elyse regarding Walker. We are gonna head out there on the 25th and see what needs to be done. Then you know what, I don't care if people help me, I'm gonna start doing it. Hows that for taking charge. I will let the red tapers have fun with thier red tape parties, while I make a difference.

Talk to Ron.

 

[Toyotanut]

.... Until then, I will wheel up there and watch as everyone else takes care of keeping the area I play in open for me.

How is this going to help things out?

BTW, the reason down at Elbe, and up at Walker things can get done is because they are actual ORV Parks with some funding and backing by DNR. Right now Reiter is nothing more than an area that people congregate to use. Until Reiter is recognized as an ORV Park, there isn't much that DNR will do, but close the land to all use if things get too out of control.

 

[KarlVP]

How is this going to help things out?

BTW, the reason down at Elbe, and up at Walker things can get done is because they are actual ORV Parks with some funding and backing by DNR. Right now Reiter is nothing more than an area that people congregate to use. Until Reiter is recognized as an ORV Park, there isn't much that DNR will do, but close the land to all use if things get too out of control.

Horseshit. Ron is ready to go up there. Any takers as to who is talking to him? I've only been here for a year. I'm not too keen on who people are yet. And we have enough people fighting for that area, that it doesn't seem too far off that we could use some personal funds to make improvements on our own up there. I'm sure the DNR wouldn't mind telling us what we need to do to keep it ecologically sound.

 

[Hip]

Horseshit. Ron is ready to go up there. Any takers as to who is talking to him? I've only been here for a year. I'm not too keen on who people are yet. And we have enough people fighting for that area, that it doesn't seem too far off that we could use some personal funds to make improvements on our own up there. I'm sure the DNR wouldn't mind telling us what we need to do to keep it ecologically sound.

sorry Karl but that is not the case. ron does not have jurisdiction to the actual land, it is state parks land and they have the jurisdiction.

there is also state funded and sponsored search and rescue who has a say in what is gated as they have to have vehicle access to the top . they do not want it blocked in any way. the state wants it blocked for vehicle traffic due to oil runoff only, but has no money or ability to do any thing about it (red tape) they do have the ability to shut down the area entirely..

DNR has no jurisdiction or funding in place but lots of promises and enthusium..

the climbers who are involved want no blockage and want vehicle traffic to be allowed to the top as in thier opinion the more people up there the better chance stuff wont be thrown off by peerpressure.

The state is looking into; can they supply a few ecogoly blocks that the wheelers could get into place with donated labor but again i would not hold my breath.

 

[Toyoda1]

Anyone know the process to get Reiter classified as an ORV park?

 

[KarlVP]

Hip, your statement is exactly what I am talking about. Someone else to slap my **** in the dirt. Why can't we maintain our own trails?

Whether or not DNR has any jurisdiction there matters not. If we can't keep the dumpers out, I guess we can't keep the dumpers out. We'll just keep picking thier crap up. If the climbers want to climb, I don't care. Search and rescue could have thier own keys to guardian gates. But I guess those battles are getting foght so let's talk about what we do.

How about trail maintenance? I'm sure that DNR could do a ride along with us and let us know what we could do to keep erosion down. If they can close land why can't they help us keep it open? Funding? I'll personally buy some lumber and rock to help make water bars. We have the voulnteer work force. I'll close bypasses and the routes to make more. I'll put signs up. When I got here a year ago everyone said signs were in the works. Where are they? Who's working on them.

I've got a fire under my ass. Why can't Joe Blow who likes to play, help out?

Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems like the people who have been fighting this battle, do more bickering amongst themselves, than taking the fight to the man.

 

[KarlVP]

Anyone know the process to get Reiter classified as an ORV park?

Yeah, it's gonna take a while. PM Comet for the bill number and you can look it up. There are many hoops to jump through.

 

[Gibby1]

Pnw4wda

I'll probably get slammed for this one. Has anyone brought this to the PNW region for your area. I believe it's region 3?

How did they respond.

There are people in the region that have the ear of people that can get things done.

That being said, if the Region ISN'T willing to get involved, consider getting involved in the Region so that YOU can make the decisions, learn what they know and have access to their resources.

There's some very good energy up there. It sounds like a couple of chiefs are needs. I would hope that Region 3 would help out. From what I know of my region, region 2, we'd have people getting involved, officially or unofficially but the right contacts would be happening.

I hate thinking that I need a flame suit on to mention the PNW4WDA but this IS what they're supposed to be involved with and supposed to be able to help you with.

 

[Gibby1]

A separate point. What I'm working towards at Elbe are the legal and purpose built bypasses so that the most difficulty obstacle can be avoided. These bypasses would be virtually paved with rock so that they are easy and don't deteriorate on their own.

It would be much easier to build these BEFORE the area is regulated by simply taking the bypasses that exist, pave them and make them obvious bypasses, then block off or obliterate the by passes that are NOT good so that they don't get used.

It's a very viable alternative to make legitimate bypasses vs user built bypasses.

 

[Hip]

Hip, your statement is exactly what I am talking about. Someone else to slap my **** in the dirt. Why can't we maintain our own trails?

Whether or not DNR has any jurisdiction there matters not. If we can't keep the dumpers out, I guess we can't keep the dumpers out. We'll just keep picking thier crap up. If the climbers want to climb, I don't care. Search and rescue could have thier own keys to guardian gates. But I guess those battles are getting foght so let's talk about what we do.

How about trail maintenance? I'm sure that DNR could do a ride along with us and let us know what we could do to keep erosion down. If they can close land why can't they help us keep it open? Funding? I'll personally buy some lumber and rock to help make water bars. We have the voulnteer work force. I'll close bypasses and the routes to make more. I'll put signs up. When I got here a year ago everyone said signs were in the works. Where are they? Who's working on them.

I've got a fire under my ass. Why can't Joe Blow who likes to play, help out?

Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems like the people who have been fighting this battle, do more bickering amongst themselves, than taking the fight to the man.

exactly why RTW was formed because we as a group felt that the (flame suit on) PNWA and Snohomish ORV group was exactly what you said.


im not trying to knock anyone at all im just stating the real situation so people dont get the wrong impression. that is exactly why RTW was formed to get things done in the mean time until the ORV status is achieved if ever. if possible it will take aproximatel 10 years. that is a whole nother ball game.

RTW president is on the (forget what its official name is) but he is active in much larger circles than most of the community on a state wide comittee for ORV usage.

Why can't we maintain our own trails?

we can, we do.

DNR cannot officially give us "ANY" guidance on reiter because it is not an ORV park and there is no funding to do anything. if we do it it is on our own.

now you said something that i have said many times, ill donate some time and effort and money to do some projects... but there in lays the problem. if we spend th e money and time to do something unofficial and outside state regulations it could be considered vandalism, if we create any soil erosion then you are liable. if the soil erosion gets in a stream you are liable. im not knocking your enthusium at all im just trying to put some reality into the conversation.

history is: if you a user, block a bypass, within two days it will be reopened by people who dont care.
if you mark a trail for motorcycle use who says its for motorcycles only?
ohh there are no bypasses at reiter.
there are no trails at reiter. reiter is not an orv park. that is the reality.

now faced with all the red tape and interagencies that are involved we are trying to do what we can. its very slow and painful.

gibby i like the official bypass as i think they will always appear so why not make them official and marked as such. good job keep up the good work.

someone mentioned who is responsible for mapping the trails. answer is I AM.

i have been trying for over a year to get one single trail down on a topo software but i do not have the tools to do this myself. so i have had MANY people step up and say this is so easy we could do it in one day, i have had volunteers go with me and map tons of stuff. i have had volunteers actually make a electronic map of EVERY 4x4 trail and then stopped communicating with me for whatever reason.

so im asking for help here with mappping trails. anyone with a capable GPS can PM me for the details of what we need to happen then offer the files to me for addition to the map.

sighnage is kinda waiting for a detailed map so RTW along with the Snohomish Co ORV group can start arguing about what trails to mark as what. then sign them. then two days later sign them again. then repeat the process every two days until the people get tired of tearing the signs down.

karl and anyone else i do encourage involvement but things are not as easy as they seem.

 

[Rock_Crusher]

A separate point. What I'm working towards at Elbe are the legal and purpose built bypasses so that the most difficulty obstacle can be avoided. These bypasses would be virtually paved with rock so that they are easy and don't deteriorate on their own.

It would be much easier to build these BEFORE the area is regulated by simply taking the bypasses that exist, pave them and make them obvious bypasses, then block off or obliterate the by passes that are NOT good so that they don't get used.

It's a very viable alternative to make legitimate bypasses vs user built bypasses.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

hikers / wall climbers / bikes / offroaders / horse riders? etc............

there needs to be a specific - title given & set up for EVERYONE who plays at or around Reiter. including property owners/ state - media... and someone should sit down that has the knowledge of the place & draw up blueprints / models .... 3d images whatever it takes to "put" a picture in a strangers eye, of how it will / should look for every user... where the roads / trails / etc will be / look...

once you have a ruff model of the whole area layed out on a table to look at? then a impact studie can be done... do you think the state is going to pay? are they? are you? theres alot of planning / monies.... strategy, etc.
and it's not going to happen, unless every group user gets together and makes these decisions together & agree's... if you think, your going to get away w/ what or how it's been so far........ think again?

someone, needs to get everyone, *user group's on board and sit down.

 

[Gibby1]

Map data

Hip, did you ever GET the data?

I have topo software and the mapping software that I'm learning how to use, since I'm working on the Elbe mapping project.

If you have data that can be imported into my Garmin GPS I'll see what I can do about putting it together. At least it will be a start.