Scale Class Discussion WARCRC

[grover]

Topics that may be worth discussing:

Do we have time in the day to run three classes?

Do we have enough competitors?

What course restrictions (we are driving crawlers not submarines)?

Gates or Ropes?

Penalties or Rollovers(like ORCRC)?

Tuck restrictions(this will be a hot topic)

I would like to get imput from the group so we dont default to a system that others are using for lack of better planning.

 

[Knok2222]

would this be limited to one scale size? I think im a little confused as to how this would work...

 

[grover]

I will start it off.

Two pet peeves of mine are to much mud and water for electic vehicals. Not that I appose some of each but I dont have cash flowing out the ass and it is a sure way to piss off any spectators. Yes I said it we crawl were people that see us and we need to respect the privaleg. Second I hate that scale trucks race through the course. My favorite part of watching scale looking rc trucks is the realism of the event. You totally loose that when you race for time, no gorgeous lines and finess.

I would like frame mounted steering, front steering only, dig, Full axle to axle frame rails and realistic crawler body or 10"x3"x3" min. tube chassis with side panels and roof. 2.2 or smaller wheels and tires. Batteries on the chassis. One motor.

I know there is alot more but I want to here some others first.

Chad-

 

[redbullcrawler]

Here is scale for ya. Top heavy and cool lookin:clappy:

These thing tend to back up alot. some thing to think about and the wheelbase matchin the rig. Nothin says not scale like a diff 3 inches past the bumper.


Just my $0.02 Mike.

 

[grover]

would this be limited to one scale size? I think im a little confused as to how this would work...

Two reasons most clubs run only one size scale truck 1/10 or 2.2 which ever way you look at it. first the course needs to accomidate a given size of truck. Second most of the proline and hpi bodies we use are 1/10 scale as well as the prefered proline and imex tires being 2.2.

Chad-

 

[grover]

Here is scale for ya. Top heavy and cool lookin:clappy:
These thing tend to back up alot. some thing to think about and the wheelbase matchin the rig. Nothin says not scale like a diff 3 inches past the bumper.


Just my $0.02 Mike.

Yes. Most clubs include a implication that the wheels need to be in the wheel wells. Tubers and pictures of 1:1 trucks with stretched wheelbases usually push the rule so far its hard to enforce.

Being on the rules commity for USRCCA has tought me not to say things can or cant be done...the writing of the rule would be tough though.

P.S. redbullcrawler are you thinking of joining WARCRC?

Chad-

 

[redbullcrawler]

Yes. Most clubs include a implication that the wheels need to be in the wheel wells. Tubers and pictures of 1:1 trucks with stretched wheelbases usually push the rule so far its hard to enforce.

Being on the rules commity for USRCCA has tought me not to say things can or cant be done...the writing of the rule would be tough though.

P.S. redbullcrawler are you thinking of joining WARCRC?

Chad-

At this time I gotta so no thanks. Just want to do my thing here. Go over to Van and maybe hop the border to do a comp there. I wouldn't mind if you could get me the dates for your event so I can plan B.C. Day. All Canadian and U.S. Crawlers are welcome.

 

[Todd1803]

I know I'm going to be building a scale truck because I can't afford a bruiser, and have wanted one since I was a kid, so I'm going to build a leaf spring TLT. I will say up front that I have no desire to run through a swamp. I decided up front that if that meant I don't compete with the truck, I was totally ok with that.

As for the rules, I think that in a lot of people's minds, scale class is more of a "trail" class than a "crawler" class. I'm not sure how I feel about it, but part of the issue is when the vehicles are built beyond "scale" capabilities, and the courses have to be more extreme to keep things challenging.

Personally, I think tires / wheels are a big part of this. 2.2 wheels equate to 22" wheels at 1:10 scale, and Moabs would be over 4 feet tall. The biggest tires I've ever seen on a 1:1 truck are 44's, and I've NEVER seen them in a serious off-road situation here in the PNW. The rigs would just fall over and tumble doen the mountian.

I guess I would like a scale rig to look and act like something I could see on a real trail at any given time. A scale truck that looks like a 1:1 competition crawler is cool, but you don't see them in real world very often.

 

[hotwheels000]

I dont really want to submarine my new scaler either but it is water proof if need be (bonus gate). I do like the idea of a trail type course with roots , holes,tight corners off camber,log crossings etc... Evans Creek OHV style.

I have comp trucks for rock crawling and think the scale class should drift away from the rocks, not all of them just not a course of rocks.


I dont think it should be limited to 1/10 size, as we all know some of the little trucks will give the big uns a run on certain obsticles and they(big uns) have there own limitations also esspecially scale they would be very top heavy with a narrow tire if you were to heep it scale. I am personally getting ready to build a car hauler and trailer out of a CXT with nylint axles(or clod) with nylint tires to keep with the scale theme and would like to be able to run it. As I said that truck would have some serious limitatins in the performance department but would look cool as hell.

Just my .02 worth

Devlin

PS:

Chad
Are there discussions about a scale class at national level and if so what sort of guide lines are they using at this point ? Not that we need to follow down that path but something to think about. That being said if it is just truck regulations, and scoring would remain the same, if anyone was invited and wanted to compete in that cl;ass we would already be on top of the rules and would only need to make the truck fit the specs.........

 

[Tanis]

I agree with what Chad is saying about the scale class. I think that one of the biggest issues we have right now at our comps is time. I also think that watching the scale trucks work the course is the fun part not watching them race through to beat the clock. Maybe we could set up a separate comp for the scale class, so that trucks could have time to try different lines, maybe even winch or whatever without having to worry about timing out so much. And everybody could get a chance to watch. That is what scale means to me. I don't plan on competing for now, because I just built my super, but I would still come to watch. In all honesty, a 5 min time limit gives no time to really work the course and see what your truck can actually do. We have to have time limits now because we have so many trucks. As we run it now, both classes at once, I have missed out on seeing other trucks run courses, most importantly to me, Brittany, and adding another class would make it even more difficult and complex. Just my .02...well I guess there's closer to a dollar there
Nathan

 

[Tanis]

I like what you said Devlin about the course not being just rocks.

 

[redbullcrawler]

Get some basic rules and at the end of the next comp run 1 course with 5 trucks to see what its like. The best way to figure it out is to try it out. Then you have a base line to build on or scrap the idea.:beer:

 

[grover]

Get some basic rules and at the end of the next comp run 1 course with 5 trucks to see what its like. The best way to figure it out is to try it out. Then you have a base line to build on or scrap the idea.:beer:

As already stated ...I dont like how the scale class is currently run. I want to see if there are better solutions than we see being used now. If not I will not be compeeting because it would only be frustrating to me.

The more scale the truck the more limited its ability (in general). Then you come out and compete with them. It just makes people frustrated to see the more comp built truck win and the more scale truck loose and no rule set I have seen addresses this dicotomy effectively.

Chad-

 

[grover]

PS:

Chad
Are there discussions about a scale class at national level and if so what sort of guide lines are they using at this point ? Not that we need to follow down that path but something to think about. That being said if it is just truck regulations, and scoring would remain the same, if anyone was invited and wanted to compete in that cl;ass we would already be on top of the rules and would only need to make the truck fit the specs.........

Short answer is NO. Two people brought it up and were quickly put in place. There needs to be a comprehensive look at how the class should be governed and we are not done with the '07 rules revisions yet. to the best of my knowledge we are watching the contry for a better example of how to do scale correctly if at all.

Chad-

 

[hotwheels000]

Get some basic rules and at the end of the next comp run 1 course with 5 trucks to see what its like. The best way to figure it out is to try it out. Then you have a base line to build on or scrap the idea.:beer:

As already stated ...I dont like how the scale class is currently run. I want to see if there are better solutions than we see being used now. If not I will not be compeeting because it would only be frustrating to me.

The more scale the truck the more limited its ability (in general). Then you come out and compete with them. It just makes people frustrated to see the more comp built truck win and the more scale truck loose and no rule set I have seen addresses this dicotomy effectively.

Chad-

As I said previosly, lets stay away from a rock coarse and incorporate a more trail style, that will put the true scalers in there element and take the comp truck advantage away. Its hard to climb a slick mud,root crevise laden path if you dont have wheel speed and some weight to go with it. Take the center clearance and articulation out of the picture and you will have trucks designed for a new purpose (scale)

I dont think that the next comp spot will be good for a scale course but maybe we could find something and give it a shot as more of a GTG/learning curve

Bring on the trucks

Thanks for the updae at a nat level

Devlin

 

[hotwheels000]

Thinking about it a little more

What about the scale class having some of these restrictions

Leaf spring only

servo mounted on the frame

spec tire( swamp dog or geo or ????)

Tires in the wheel well within reason(no wideners)

Tires in the wheel base



Since most of use have not built scalers yet it would not be to hard to make this happen, for those of us that already have trucks,it would not be that hard to change if you wanted to compete.

These are very limited trucks and would take the comp style trucks out of the equation and keep it even for all


Devlin

 

[Todd1803]

I mostly agree with Devlin on his proposed rules, here's how I see it:

Leaf spring only Keeps the articulation reasonably equal between all competitors, or at least everybody is dealing with the same challenge.

servo mounted on the frame Absolutely. Noting is less scale than a big servo and mounting plate sitting on the front axle. I would expand this rule to include battery and all electronics mounted on the frame as well.

spec tire( swamp dog or geo or ????) I'm not as worried about the tires being from a spec list. I think a "scale" tread pattern is important. Moabs have an acceptable pattern, but Mashers don't look scale. Neither do Red Rocks. Moabs are too tall, but if the truck is narrow enough to keep the tires in the fenders, and all the electronics and battery are on the frame, the CG will be too high to be effective.

Tires in the wheel well within reason(no wideners) Yes.

Tires in the wheel base Yes again.

 

[SnoFalls]

My thoughts ...

Basics are a "scale class" rig has to adhere to 2.2 classification.

Then have a "scale" scoring done by judges ...
* prototype
subtract for "realism" to a specific prototype (aka the model is a twin to your 1:1 wheeler)
add when the wheelbase, tracwidth, tire size, etc aren't even close to a scale rig.
* steering
add for non-frame mouted steering
subtract for a steering wheel that moves :redneck:
* suspension
add for non-scale suspension (e.g 4-links on a F150 or leafs on a buggy)
* Interior
subtract for seats, driver/passenger, steering, guages, etc
add if none present
* Misc
subtract for lights, winch, hilift, etc

Have a "score sheet" (with additional plusses and minuses ...) that makes it easy for judging.

Now, have the "scale" rigs run the 2.2 course. If someone has an uber-detailed rig, they can take penalties for "bypassing" an obstacle (rather than destory their rig in a roll). This means all the 2.2 rigs run the 2.2 course scale or not (aka no extra course, no added runs). Could even limit people to choose the rig they wanna run (aka can;t run one rig for 2.2 comp and then the same driver run another rig on the course in "scale class").

Total the scale points with the course points ... If your rig sucks on the 2.2 course then it better do well in "scale judging". I also expect the rigs that do well on the course might have non-scale elements that hurt them.

I expect a nice balance of form and function would be the best (and seems to me what the class should be striving for).

Here's my case in point ...
I'm building a "scale" scorpion. It's as close to 1/8 scale as I can get with the chassis/body, it'd be running ~20" wheels with ~40" rubber, and a reasonable wheelbase (100") and tracwidth(~88").
I want it to be capable of running a 2.2 course, so the ride height is a bit to high, and I'll probably mount the servo on the TLT axle.
I'd like to deck it out so it can be "scale" (e.g. interior, occupents, accessiories, etc).
I don't expect to ever win a 2.2 comp, but hope it can be capable. So that's the balance I'm working towards.

 

[redbullcrawler]

I had my hands on a set of lesfs the other day and they are super stiff with only the main leaf. Had a highlift truck here and and the flex, well there none. Comparing rc to 1:1 my sunbird would get more flex than that truck LOL. Real world suspention design would be cool ie. you have a pic of a 1:1 with crazy links than you could use that design.

This guy from Blackflag has a single link rear:beer:

 

[hotwheels000]

I mostly agree with Devlin on his proposed rules, here's how I see it:

Leaf spring only Keeps the articulation reasonably equal between all competitors, or at least everybody is dealing with the same challenge.

servo mounted on the frame Absolutely. Noting is less scale than a big servo and mounting plate sitting on the front axle. I would expand this rule to include battery and all electronics mounted on the frame as well.

spec tire( swamp dog or geo or ????) I'm not as worried about the tires being from a spec list. I think a "scale" tread pattern is important. Moabs have an acceptable pattern, but Mashers don't look scale. Neither do Red Rocks. Moabs are too tall, but if the truck is narrow enough to keep the tires in the fenders, and all the electronics and battery are on the frame, the CG will be too high to be effective.

Tires in the wheel well within reason(no wideners) Yes.

Tires in the wheel base Yes again.

Yeah ,that is what I meant by a spec tire. mashers do not look real (even if that is what is on mine right now)any tire that resembles a real tread should be allowed