• Help Support Hardline Crawlers :

Shock tuning

boxer1

Active Member
Joined
Sep 24, 2011
Messages
28
Looking to take some of the harshness out when General Trail riding and in rocky bouldery trails. Thinking about putting a flutter stack in.
If I currently have a 70 compression rate would you use the first (largest OD ) shim out of a 50 set up and then like the 4th or 5th shim our of the 50 stack ( so you get the smaller diameter ) and then go back to your 3,4,5.... shims from your 70 stack? I have contacted several shock tuners just trying to get some advice on where and how to start figuring out shock tuning but nobody really wants to help and there's not a lot of info on how to get started. Just looking for some general pointers to get me going in the right direction so I don't make any costly mistakes.

Thanks for any info your willing to give up. I'm not a racer and don't have any sponsors, I'm just a regular guy on a limited budget trying to learn some stuff to get the most out of my Jeep.
 
With the flutter you shouldn't take anything out of the 70 stack. You only add the flutter stack on top of it. Generally, flutters use a couple .008 for the main or more and then the smallest diameter shim under it with varying thicknesses. The thickness of this small shim affects for how much fluid bleeds by before the main stack is engaged.
Bleed holes will do the same thing except they also soften the rebound as well.
How much preload do you have on your coil springs?uptravel distance? Resivior shocks? Pressure?
 
1" preload. Emulsion shock. 7" up travel on a 16" shock. This is not a high horsepower buggy it's more for rockcrawling not rockbouncing. Front springs are 150/200 and the rears are 100/150. Both are set up with 50/70 rebound/compression. I'd have to go check on the pressure.
 
So unfortunately people tend to keep shock tuning a secret if they even know anything. The (pros) that's cost money are worth it, but if your wanting to learn for yourself just have to play with the shims yourself. I would say try to read on crawlpedia and try to understand what each shim does for your ride. Lots of trial and error. Had my shocks apart dozens of times to make a small change. A little change does go a long way. Now for advice on what to change, I would say if u want to soften up the trail riding just change your top big shims to a 50 or whatever u want. Just see how u like it. Good luck


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
I agree with Adam. I would try a lighter valve stack. I did not have success with flutter stacks in an emulsion shock. There is such a big difference in how it rides in the morning vs how it rides at the end of the day, as the oil turns to foam. Feels like no valving driving back to the trailer.
This is what I ended up with
600 lb front corner sprung weight, 8" uptravel, 150/150, 2 bleeds @ .070 and 2 @ .060 for a total of 4 open holes, 70 compression, 100 rebound, all this in a 2.0 coilover air shock with 3cc less than max fill, 200 psi.
Rear is 400 lb corner sprung weight, 10" uptravel, 80/100, same bleeds as front, 50 compression, 90 rebound, same oil level and pressure as front.

There is a real balance to having a soft riding rear spring set up and enough spring force to hold the rig up when the weight transfers from climbing steep hills. The dual rate stop height is also very important for this.
Also I went straight to 4 bleed holes. I wished I would have tried 3 just to see what it was like. FYI, you can't weld or tap a sintered metal piston to try and block the hole you drilled in it.
 
boxer1 said:
Looking to take some of the harshness out when General Trail riding and in rocky bouldery trails. Thinking about putting a flutter stack in.
If I currently have a 70 compression rate would you use the first (largest OD ) shim out of a 50 set up and then like the 4th or 5th shim our of the 50 stack ( so you get the smaller diameter ) and then go back to your 3,4,5.... shims from your 70 stack? I have contacted several shock tuners just trying to get some advice on where and how to start figuring out shock tuning but nobody really wants to help and there's not a lot of info on how to get started. Just looking for some general pointers to get me going in the right direction so I don't make any costly mistakes.

Thanks for any info your willing to give up. I'm not a racer and don't have any sponsors, I'm just a regular guy on a limited budget trying to learn some stuff to get the most out of my Jeep.

boxer1 said:
1" preload. Emulsion shock. 7" up travel on a 16" shock. This is not a high horsepower buggy it's more for rockcrawling not rockbouncing. Front springs are 150/200 and the rears are 100/150. Both are set up with 50/70 rebound/compression. I'd have to go check on the pressure.

I'd be glad to help you with what you want. But am not free, I'd be glad to give you as much advise as I can and a quote if you're interested. IMO adding reservoirs along with proper valving will help the most.
 
Don't start with a flutter stack.

Start with getting a tradition pyramid stack as close as possible. Then introduce a .010 fulcrum. And note the change.

Also only change one part of the valving at a time.

I like to start with the rebound first, when it packs in, the ride quality is terrible. It's hard to see/feel what's actually going on when it packs in badly.

The fox chart is a good starting point, but isn't the limits of what you can do.

The larger shims affect low speed, medium are mid speed, and the smaller are high speed. That is in reference to piston speed.

Get a pyramid stack that feels the best and then change out sections of the stack that achieve the goal you desire.

Ex: You may end up with two .008 shims next to the piston on C, then a .010 very small fulcrum, then a conventional pyramid stack after.

Come up with an idea of how you want the valving to be. Ie: fast rebound, light low speed comp, with very progressive compression dampening. Then make the valving perform as you desire.

The best way to learn is to tune and take notes, tune and take notes, tune and take notes.

This way I can lighten or stiffen the valving beyond what's best to confirm a direction and magnitude of the change. Check notes to see what felt better or worse, and in what way.

Another note is having a good place to tune that has all the obstacles for low/med/high piston speeds for accurately tuning the entire stack.

The best is to tune where you plan to ride the most.

Don't ignore the Free Bleed and the dual rate stop nuts.

Depending on what piston you have, you can drill/ tap bleed holes. As well as drill the ports out larger if needed.

If it's the newer powder metal/sintered piston, that's not an option.

I'll help any way I can.

Getting the right springs is the biggest first step. 2" preload is ideal, but 1" will work. Make sure you have at least 1" preload all the way around.

2" preload is ideal as it ensures you have the lightest springs to hold the weight up at the correct height.

Min 50 lbs split between primary/secondary spring, 100 is better.

If you can deal with raising ride height to 8up/down. This may get you 2" preload and the extra uptravel helps to give extra time for the valving to soak up a big compression event.

Going near/below 100lbs rate on springs, they start bowing badly.
 
Mac5005 is right. The harshness is packing from the 70 rebound. Put at least one away bar on it and put a 30 stack on the rebound side. Start with a 70 on the comp side, put 1.6 x.010 and 1.425 x 010 on top of the 70 stack. Play with the mid and high speed from there. Run more nitrogen pressure like 250 psi. It's an emulsion shock which isn't ideal so the higher pressure will help keep the fluid from cavitating through the stiffer comp pack.
 
mac5005 when you say "Ex: You may end up with two .008 shims next to the piston on C, then a .010 very small fulcrum, then a conventional pyramid stack after. " what do you mean by .010 fulcrum?

cdemart2 when you say "Put at least one away bar on it and put a 30 stack on the rebound side. " what do you mean by away bar?

I appreciate the help form both of you. Things are starting to make a little more sense. It really helps when somebody will at least point you in the right direction.
 
When you get the coilover tuned well for great ride, you will most likely need a sway bar to combat body roll.

If you have more sprung mass with light unsprung mass, or shocks mounted to the links in a leading/trailing arm fashion, as well as equal spring rates front and rear, sometimes you can get away without a sway bar. This is done by tuning the dual rate stop nut height in relationship to the dual rate slider.

This is not the norm for most rigs with tons and unequal weight distribution.

Getting the shocks tuned for best ride will allow the body to roll more than it does currently. It's easy to use a sway bar to control this as it is tuneable as well.

The sway bar also controls the timing of articulation front vs rear.

A rear bar makes the front articulate sooner and work more.

A front bar makes the rear suspension articulate sooner and work more.

This is why a sway bar can solve more than one issue, and is completely tuneable independently from the shocks.

That equates to less compromise between body roll and suspension ride quality and compliance.

Generally, put the sway bar on the end of the vehicle with the lighter spring rates to balance the heavier springs and force them to articulate at the same time as the lighter springs.

Cdemart2 is just saying to go ahead and plan for one.

A fulcrum shim is the smaller diameter shim in a flutter stack that puts a gap between shims in a flutter stack.

It allows the larger diameter shim to bend farther allowing more flow sooner before contacting the smaller diameter shim above it.

Ex: comp shim stack. From piston down. Diameter then thickness.

1.6" .010
.900 .012" fulcrum
1.5" .010
1.4" .010
1.25" .010
1.1" .010
.900" .010
.900" .200 back up
1.6" .200 rate plate


I wouldn't immediately up the pressure in the shock to 250. This can play hell with compression valving and tuning as the shock begins to be progressive as the compression ratio increases due to increased n2.

It can be an issue on high loads and stuff valving as you exceed the vapor pressure of the oil as it travels through the piston and valving. For getting started leave it at 200.

A buddy ran emulsions as low as 150 psi on a super light Toyota buggy with no erosion on the piston ports.

It was challenging to get the comp valving light enough, and the coilover was acting like an air shock in compression due to the compression ratio of the shock.

I needed to enlarge the ports but wasn't an option at the time.

Dropped the n2 pressure from 200-175-150 helped to get 2" preload without a spring change. It had zero preload with 200psi.

My point to all that, is yes it's a valid point with emulsions, but don't change too many things at once.

Start with the springs and preload.

Then lighten the rebound.

Then work on compression.

Start with straight pyramid stacks.

Free bleeds.

Then work in a flutter if needed.

Tune dual rate stop nuts, tune sway bar.

Fine tune rebound.

Fine tune compression.

Check piston for port erosion, increase n2 if you notice port erosion.

Emulsions are fine if you are just trail riding. Keep an eye or hand on temps. If you notice the shocks getting hot (200*) you are hot enough to have fade.

This is when the fluid has thinned out due to temp increase, and it feels like both rebound and compression valving has gotten significantly lighter(faster).

This shows you are exceeding the working range of an emulsion, and without doubt need a reservoir.

Yes resi shocks are better than emulsion.

But, you can tune an emulsion in about half the time of a resi shock.

A well tuned emulsion is better bang for the buck, and your back, compared to a poorly tuned resi shock on a trail rig.

Generally if you feel the bumps or hits in the steering wheel, that's the front.

If you feel the bump or hit in your butt/back, that's the rear.
 
I had torn the front four link out and bent the front shock shafts my last trip out so I have been rebuilding that I finally got the bent shafts swapped out this weekend and adjusted all the shocks to a 50/50 setup. Hopefully I can get out in the next couple of weekends and see what the lighter rebound did. Still trying to wrap my head around adjusting rebound to address harsh ride. I understand that the rebound is forcing the shock out and a stiff rebound will make for a harsh ride but then what effects the compression side? Is it when dropping off a big ledge to keep it from bottoming out or when getting airborne/unloading the shocks it helps keep from bottoming out. I'm typically just rockcrawling and trail riding so nothing over 20 mph most of the time , so just trying to dial in a smooth ride over wash board and small rocks on the feeder trails and then soaking up the big rocks when crawling and not unloading when climbing big ledges and waterfalls.
 
boxer1 said:
I had torn the front four link out and bent the front shock shafts my last trip out so I have been rebuilding that I finally got the bent shafts swapped out this weekend and adjusted all the shocks to a 50/50 setup. Hopefully I can get out in the next couple of weekends and see what the lighter rebound did. Still trying to wrap my head around adjusting rebound to address harsh ride. I understand that the rebound is forcing the shock out and a stiff rebound will make for a harsh ride but then what effects the compression side? Is it when dropping off a big ledge to keep it from bottoming out or when getting airborne/unloading the shocks it helps keep from bottoming out. I'm typically just rockcrawling and trail riding so nothing over 20 mph most of the time , so just trying to dial in a smooth ride over wash board and small rocks on the feeder trails and then soaking up the big rocks when crawling and not unloading when climbing big ledges and waterfalls.

Rebound doesn't really "force" the shock shaft out. It's more, how quick does the shock piston move through the oil in either direction. The more valving and heavier the valving, the slower the piston can move, in either direction. You tend to want more compression resistance than rebound. Also, with an emulsion shock you are already aerating the oil so it's thinner.
 
Fairly certain I've seen it done before (a long time ago on Pirate), but why do they not put internal floating pistons inside the shock to keep the n2/oil separate ?

I think they put 14" shafts into a 16 or 18" shock body and added an IFP.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
wizzo said:
Rebound doesn't really "force" the shock shaft out. It's more, how quick does the shock piston move through the oil in either direction. The more valving and heavier the valving, the slower the piston can move, in either direction. You tend to want more compression resistance than rebound. Also, with an emulsion shock you are already aerating the oil so it's thinner.

So just so I'm sure I'm talking about the same thing , this is referred to as compression/rebound. I started with 50/70 compression /rebound. I changed to 50/50 because it was suggested that that would take away some of the harsh ride. You are saying you want more compression than rebound which seems the opposite to how most off the shelf coil overs come valved. They typically are set up 50/70( which is what I had) , if you want more compression than rebound then why do so many come with a heavier rebound than compression. If I put a heavier compression in like 70/50 wouldn't I just get back to having a harsh ride or does the compression side not effect the harshness as bad. I plan on making more changes ,just trying to get some good advice to cut my learning curve down a little. Trying to figure out what is the thing that effects or is effected most by compression and the same for rebound so I can understand which change is going to effect whatever problem I'm trying to address.
 
Think about it this way. A rig with good performing suspension will allow the axles to move up and down easily without moving the chassis.
Imagine hitting a log on a flat trail. Too much compression valving would buck the front of the chassis up on contact. Too little compression valving would bottom out the suspension on contact.
The goal it to find the sweet spot on both the front and rear. That is compression tuning.

Imagine hitting a dried out smooth mudhole or something.
Too much rebound valving would make the chassis dip down just like the tires.
Too little rebound valving allows the suspension to unload too easily.
The goal is to drive across the hole and the front and rear axles fall into the hole then compress upon the exit of the hole. This way the chassis stays level and does not upset the passengers or control of the vehicle.
Preload on the springs when the shock is a full extension is good this help "push" our heavy suspension away from the chassis.

We have all seen videos of desert race vehicles pounding through the whoops and the chassis mostly level and still. It is amazing when done right.
The issue with a rockcrawler is not having the chassis unload when off camber or climbing. It's a art for sure and takes a lot of knowledge to figure out.

nutshell .. too much compression can feel stiff or rigid and too little will bottom out the shocks
too much rebound feel similar because our heavy axles / tire will pull our chassis down too little and unload on climbs.
Valving at 50/50 is properly a good point to start. I would change one thing at a time and retest. Front comp test, rear comp test, front rebound test, rear rebound test.
Maintain a firm tire pressure during testing
 
boxer1 said:
So just so I'm sure I'm talking about the same thing , this is referred to as compression/rebound. I started with 50/70 compression /rebound. I changed to 50/50 because it was suggested that that would take away some of the harsh ride. You are saying you want more compression than rebound which seems the opposite to how most off the shelf coil overs come valved. They typically are set up 50/70( which is what I had) , if you want more compression than rebound then why do so many come with a heavier rebound than compression. If I put a heavier compression in like 70/50 wouldn't I just get back to having a harsh ride or does the compression side not effect the harshness as bad. I plan on making more changes ,just trying to get some good advice to cut my learning curve down a little. Trying to figure out what is the thing that effects or is effected most by compression and the same for rebound so I can understand which change is going to effect whatever problem I'm trying to address.

RustyC said it pretty well.

But I'll also add, you can take off the shelf valving and throw it in the trash.

Off the shelf is simply that. The mfg doesn't know if it's going on a street Jeep or truck or a 100% off road rig or tube buggy. So they are super conservative with valving. You think king or fox wants to get sued because some clown straps their shocks on and runs off the road and blames them? Hell no.

For a dedicated off-road rig, you want the axle to move. I'd have to revisit your original post to see if you have a sway bar but that will also influence what you do.
 
RustyC said:
Think about it this way. A rig with good performing suspension will allow the axles to move up and down easily without moving the chassis.
Imagine hitting a log on a flat trail. Too much compression valving would buck the front of the chassis up on contact. Too little compression valving would bottom out the suspension on contact.
The goal it to find the sweet spot on both the front and rear. That is compression tuning.

Imagine hitting a dried out smooth mudhole or something.
Too much rebound valving would make the chassis dip down just like the tires.
Too little rebound valving allows the suspension to unload too easily.
The goal is to drive across the hole and the front and rear axles fall into the hole then compress upon the exit of the hole. This way the chassis stays level and does not upset the passengers or control of the vehicle.
Preload on the springs when the shock is a full extension is good this help "push" our heavy suspension away from the chassis.

We have all seen videos of desert race vehicles pounding through the whoops and the chassis mostly level and still. It is amazing when done right.
The issue with a rockcrawler is not having the chassis unload when off camber or climbing. It's a art for sure and takes a lot of knowledge to figure out.

nutshell .. too much compression can feel stiff or rigid and too little will bottom out the shocks
too much rebound feel similar because our heavy axles / tire will pull our chassis down too little and unload on climbs.
Valving at 50/50 is properly a good point to start. I would change one thing at a time and retest. Front comp test, rear comp test, front rebound test, rear rebound test.
Maintain a firm tire pressure during testing

Mine feels like a damn lowrider truck in the back now. It feels rigid, to bouncy.
Sounds like maybe to much much compression from what you are saying..? It was like butter with air shicks on the rear, now I have radflow coilovers 75lb over 100lb spring on the rear now. I had 100 over 100. Went to 75 to see if it would ease up on the bounce but didnt really help much.
 
Top