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Help Support Hardline Crawlers :
TF904 / A904 / 30RH upgrades
- Thread starter patooyee
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Meh ya know manufactures change over time and new servo piston designs come out, yada yada. So the band could be changed a bit to accommodate other models.
I'd air check it. Make sure it holds asshole tight then forget about it.
Shake n bake
I'd air check it. Make sure it holds asshole tight then forget about it.
Shake n bake
The whole in lbs spec to me is just a figure that is needed to fill a space in a service manual.
The kick down band adjustment was designed to be adjusted periodically during services w/o having to remove the pan. So the series of turns and torque spec makes a little sense.
When it really comes down to it, tightening the band pin snug, giving the feeling of the band being tight against the drum, then turning back off 2-2.5 turns is great. Keeping in mind that's how you would adjust an old band without pulling the pan.
When I'm building one, I do it all by feel at the servo arm. The torque spec and turn count go out the window. It's just not a critical spec. Ya know?
The kick down band adjustment was designed to be adjusted periodically during services w/o having to remove the pan. So the series of turns and torque spec makes a little sense.
When it really comes down to it, tightening the band pin snug, giving the feeling of the band being tight against the drum, then turning back off 2-2.5 turns is great. Keeping in mind that's how you would adjust an old band without pulling the pan.
When I'm building one, I do it all by feel at the servo arm. The torque spec and turn count go out the window. It's just not a critical spec. Ya know?
patooyee
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I know and respect what you are saying as someone with apparently years of transmission experience. I've known rear-end old-timers that can throw a set of gears in an axle in a few hours by feel and make them last longer than the guys out of school can with all their fancy new financed tools in double the time.
On the other hand, I've heard how vital the timing of both bands in relation to each other is in this transmission. I also know that engineers can calculate the travel of that stud based on rise / run of the thread pitch and therefore determine the amount of space that they want between the servo and the lever when no pressure is applied. Also how fast the servo will apply the lever under a given PSI. I would assume they have done this to be able to offer up such specific specs for adjusting the bands.
For someone like me, who has so little transmission service experience, I can't just screw the service manual and go by feel. A, I have no past experience to have any memory built up to accomplish it in the first place. B, if it didn't turn out to be right, I would have no point to go back to as a definitive reference.
Please don't think I'm discounting your advice. Just trying to stick as close to the manual as possible this time so that I have a definitive point to go back to later if needed. Obviously you know what you're doing though. If the 72 in-lbs truly is too tight of a spec and I need to go back to 41 that is saying a lot for your experience because you said without even knowing that I used the wrong spec that it looked tight. That's impressive in my book!
On the other hand, I've heard how vital the timing of both bands in relation to each other is in this transmission. I also know that engineers can calculate the travel of that stud based on rise / run of the thread pitch and therefore determine the amount of space that they want between the servo and the lever when no pressure is applied. Also how fast the servo will apply the lever under a given PSI. I would assume they have done this to be able to offer up such specific specs for adjusting the bands.
For someone like me, who has so little transmission service experience, I can't just screw the service manual and go by feel. A, I have no past experience to have any memory built up to accomplish it in the first place. B, if it didn't turn out to be right, I would have no point to go back to as a definitive reference.
Please don't think I'm discounting your advice. Just trying to stick as close to the manual as possible this time so that I have a definitive point to go back to later if needed. Obviously you know what you're doing though. If the 72 in-lbs truly is too tight of a spec and I need to go back to 41 that is saying a lot for your experience because you said without even knowing that I used the wrong spec that it looked tight. That's impressive in my book!
Lol
That's cool. I'm a big fan of the guy that designs and authors the shift kit instructions from transgo.
He says over and over, set it and forget it. It's not fussy just do it and forget about it.
In trans building this is very true. The 32rh is just a big ole internally leaky trans. Mainly due to the hydraulic governor. So if you are building a manual VB or upping pressure across the board, those band adjustments become less important. The biggest downfall of them is the OEM steel sealing rings. Anywhere they can be replaced with Teflon, diagonal cuts seals. The better.
If you can pack the 3rd clutch drum with an extra fiber and steel then take the wave plates out. Pack an extra fiber and steel into the forward clutch drum. That's the drum with the input shaft splined to it.
The input drum/forward clutches are holding tight in every forward gear range. Only released in reverse. That's when the rear band applies. So 1/4" of adjustment on the rear band is all that's necessary
Then that kick down band, if you have changed to Teflon seals in the servo should be set the same. As well as upping pressures across the board will increase the release pressure on the back side of the servo helping that 2nd to 3rd over lap.
I'm sure that thing will work like a champ. Just don't forget it's similar to polishing a turd. At the end of the day it's still a 32rh. Not made to handle 700 ponies.
That's cool. I'm a big fan of the guy that designs and authors the shift kit instructions from transgo.
He says over and over, set it and forget it. It's not fussy just do it and forget about it.
In trans building this is very true. The 32rh is just a big ole internally leaky trans. Mainly due to the hydraulic governor. So if you are building a manual VB or upping pressure across the board, those band adjustments become less important. The biggest downfall of them is the OEM steel sealing rings. Anywhere they can be replaced with Teflon, diagonal cuts seals. The better.
If you can pack the 3rd clutch drum with an extra fiber and steel then take the wave plates out. Pack an extra fiber and steel into the forward clutch drum. That's the drum with the input shaft splined to it.
The input drum/forward clutches are holding tight in every forward gear range. Only released in reverse. That's when the rear band applies. So 1/4" of adjustment on the rear band is all that's necessary
Then that kick down band, if you have changed to Teflon seals in the servo should be set the same. As well as upping pressures across the board will increase the release pressure on the back side of the servo helping that 2nd to 3rd over lap.
I'm sure that thing will work like a champ. Just don't forget it's similar to polishing a turd. At the end of the day it's still a 32rh. Not made to handle 700 ponies.
You also have to remember that OEM manuals are full of factory specs that are made to be buttery smooth gear changes. All so the general public won't complain about shift harshness.
Just like in a standard trans, the pressure plates are designed to be nice and easy so gay guys and chicks can drive them too. In the end the friction material wears faster.
Same principal in an auto trans.
Just like in a standard trans, the pressure plates are designed to be nice and easy so gay guys and chicks can drive them too. In the end the friction material wears faster.
Same principal in an auto trans.
patooyee
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I'm going to be installing a Transgo th3 (http://www.transgo.com/products.php?prd=TF-3&homeinclude=catalog&category_id=60&parent_id=29&product_id=80&countdisplay=4&start=0&addcountview=Yes) full manual kit. I spoke to them about using it on the lockup trans and they gave me some special instructions to make it work. (adding a .25" rubber check ball infront of the lockup valve to prevent it from venting lockup supply in conjunction with my custom non-lockup converter.) In addition to that they told me to pin the throttle valve all the way so that the trans is running at full pressure all the time. (Since I have no throttle linkage.) It is my understanding that the Transgo kit increases pressure across the board? Is there something else I need to do?
I was able to fit a 5th clutch in the direct drum by replacing the inner pressure plate with a spare outer stepped plate that I machined slightly to fit the snap ring. I also had use two of the thinner forward clutches instead of one of the thicker direct clutches to make that happen.
My stock 30rh forward drum had 3 clutches in it. I used an a500 forward drum instead which had 4. I tried the same trick with the forward clutch pack but 5 clutches was just too much, there was no clearance under the snap ring, and the clutches were obviously too tight up against each other.
So I've got 5 direct clutches and 4 forward. My understanding is that the direct drum takes most of the abuse and is where more clutches are most beneficial anyway. Even 5/4 is an upgrade from my stock 4/3.
My rebuild kit came with a few teflon replacements for some of the steel rings but then some steel replacements for a couple teflon rings. I knew you said Teflon was better but This build was dragging out to a month long and I didn't feel like dragging it out another week to wait for teflon replacements to get here. My thoughts were that the benefits would be primarily longevity and this transmissions doesn't need to last 100,000 miles. Maybe I'm wrong but it is what it is as this point.
It doesn't need to handle 700hp. 350 hp in a 2500 - 3000 lbs rig is all.
I was able to fit a 5th clutch in the direct drum by replacing the inner pressure plate with a spare outer stepped plate that I machined slightly to fit the snap ring. I also had use two of the thinner forward clutches instead of one of the thicker direct clutches to make that happen.
My stock 30rh forward drum had 3 clutches in it. I used an a500 forward drum instead which had 4. I tried the same trick with the forward clutch pack but 5 clutches was just too much, there was no clearance under the snap ring, and the clutches were obviously too tight up against each other.
So I've got 5 direct clutches and 4 forward. My understanding is that the direct drum takes most of the abuse and is where more clutches are most beneficial anyway. Even 5/4 is an upgrade from my stock 4/3.
My rebuild kit came with a few teflon replacements for some of the steel rings but then some steel replacements for a couple teflon rings. I knew you said Teflon was better but This build was dragging out to a month long and I didn't feel like dragging it out another week to wait for teflon replacements to get here. My thoughts were that the benefits would be primarily longevity and this transmissions doesn't need to last 100,000 miles. Maybe I'm wrong but it is what it is as this point.
It doesn't need to handle 700hp. 350 hp in a 2500 - 3000 lbs rig is all.
Lol. Yeah use the Teflon everywhere you can. Under pressure they provide far more sealing pressure than the steel rings. Then as soon as pressure is taken away they relax and allow a faster bleed off. Super important in those overlapping gear changes.
Sounds like you're on a perfect track man. You got it all covered. I think it's gonna work great.
If I had your number I'd show you an easy way to hold the throttle valve wide open
Sounds like you're on a perfect track man. You got it all covered. I think it's gonna work great.
If I had your number I'd show you an easy way to hold the throttle valve wide open
patooyee
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41 in-lbs - 7 turns seems to be a much better fit. The rear band is not nearly as tight, much more similar to the front band now, and there are a lot more threads showing on the adjuster stud. (Still not nearly as many as originally though.)
I did what I could with the valve body but there isn't much going on there to rebuild. Just pulled all the valves, inspected them and their bores, tested for smooth operation, and put it all back in.
I noticed that the valve body separator plate has a huge "97" punched through it. I can't imagine that indicates the year model of the transmission? But if so that would mean that the 41-7 would be the correct spec. Thing is that I'm 100% certain that the trans came from a 95 YJ so I don't know.
All that's left now is to install the Transgo kit. More on that later. I read through the instructions for it. It recommends a completely different band adjustment procedure. We will see ...
I did what I could with the valve body but there isn't much going on there to rebuild. Just pulled all the valves, inspected them and their bores, tested for smooth operation, and put it all back in.
I noticed that the valve body separator plate has a huge "97" punched through it. I can't imagine that indicates the year model of the transmission? But if so that would mean that the 41-7 would be the correct spec. Thing is that I'm 100% certain that the trans came from a 95 YJ so I don't know.
All that's left now is to install the Transgo kit. More on that later. I read through the instructions for it. It recommends a completely different band adjustment procedure. We will see ...
patooyee
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I got my converter back and was able to start fitting it up. For lack of time to go into detail about how I found all this out, these were the results after all day of trying to figure out why it wouldn't fit:
- Oil pump flats were too wide to fit oil pump, had to be filed down.
- Pilot dowel was too large to fit in crank, had to be sanded down.
- Bolt pattern was off, had to drill my flexplate out.
- Mounting pads are not flat relative to eachother, slightly off. I don't know how important this is. Very minute.
- Mounting pads too long by about .3 - .5" by my estimation.
The converter is definitely going to have to go back again. I'm not sure how angry about this I should be yet. It is an extremely custom converter yet basic generic details were off. It will probably depend on their reaction / treatment when I call them tomorrow.
In the process of doing all this I think I may have found that I installed my oil pump gear backwards. Where the converter goes into it, one side is relatively flat and the other is much more beveled, I assume to give the converter snout more of a ramp to mesh properly. I flipped it around but in so doing lost ALL of my shaft end play. I'm trying to wrap my head around why this affects end play. Maybe it is why I had too much to begin with and now I have to go back in and remove that extra shim I put in before? Very disappointed in this and would appreciate if someone was able to tell me for sure which way the oil pump gear goes in and / or how it affects end play.
- Oil pump flats were too wide to fit oil pump, had to be filed down.
- Pilot dowel was too large to fit in crank, had to be sanded down.
- Bolt pattern was off, had to drill my flexplate out.
- Mounting pads are not flat relative to eachother, slightly off. I don't know how important this is. Very minute.
- Mounting pads too long by about .3 - .5" by my estimation.
The converter is definitely going to have to go back again. I'm not sure how angry about this I should be yet. It is an extremely custom converter yet basic generic details were off. It will probably depend on their reaction / treatment when I call them tomorrow.
In the process of doing all this I think I may have found that I installed my oil pump gear backwards. Where the converter goes into it, one side is relatively flat and the other is much more beveled, I assume to give the converter snout more of a ramp to mesh properly. I flipped it around but in so doing lost ALL of my shaft end play. I'm trying to wrap my head around why this affects end play. Maybe it is why I had too much to begin with and now I have to go back in and remove that extra shim I put in before? Very disappointed in this and would appreciate if someone was able to tell me for sure which way the oil pump gear goes in and / or how it affects end play.
patooyee
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I was right! Turns out this little guy fell out of his home and got destroyed. Fortunately I have a couple spares laying around so no big deal. I looked closely and nothing else seems to be damaged. Got everything back together with acceptable end play now.
