The does and donts in the trail systems

[Brian H]

Agreed.


But it just seems like every single pic that gets posted these days has the dogs released on it without explanation... I just hate alienating people right off the bat without allowing them to learn why they're the target of controversy.

I think its more frustration than turning the dog looses.Alot of people are fighting hard to keep the trails open and when a bad pic is posted thats just a huge slap in the face. Hopefully this thread will help to educate people enough from all the good points people have to say .

 

[Grommit327]

Also for people that are saying the rigs that have large tires are the ones that are ruining the trails are way off its the little guys that have to spin the **** out of them to make past a point and then end up getting stuck or trying to take a bypass.

Anybody can tear up a trail...are you saying that 42" iroks powered by 400+ HP in a buggy is going to do less damage then 31" MT spinning? It all comes down to the driver and if he knows when to quit spinning and get a tug/pull cable. The larger tired vehicle knows he can probably make it if he puts the pedal down a little more but that extra couple seconds does just as much damage as a 31" tire spinning for a lot longer time period

 

[Rich1]

ever wonder how much fruit is touched by a person in a grocery store?

you grab a orange & feel it? naw, grab another one... hummm, naw... yet you grab another & maybe thats the one you want? on to the next person... & so on. as in this debate;

why can't we get the old timers / experienced offroaders / major clubs that have roots here in Washington state to come forward w/ a plan that would put all this debate crap to bed & just get EVERY SINGLE TRAIL SYSTEM, posted up & sanctioned w/ specific rules & requirements per trail.

once & for all.

wether it's new trails - one straight line w/ many easy to extreme obstacles w/ go arounds or already exsisting trail systems... just get the RIGHT people to map them out & for once & all, label them & put in place a system that GOVERNS them. w/ strict fines for people breaking the rules.

***Hence back to my suggestion of a OFFROAD LICENSE / PERMIT where the requirements to get it, would be a education in up to date rules & laws / trail guidlines / etc... and that money would pay for enforcement & upkeep / etc.

:corn: :corn: :corn:

 

[angelfly]

I myself have been one such person to post questionable pics(all in legal places) and i definetly learned from that mistake. I am what u would call i guess some what of a newb (driver) i have been going out with my family since i was born.

THE BIGGEST problem i think these days and its also a plus too and thats technology now a days a 17yr old kid can have mommy and dady go out and spend 6g's and he can buy a full out rock buggie with no experience:wtf: . Education here is the biggest allie we need to get out and instead of screaming and yelling or talking **** about that newbie coming down the trail making a fool of himself go out and help not just add to the problem. Guys like crash karlvp etc. i personally have witnessed finish a trail section and get out only to go back and spot and help the young pup behind them. That is the kind of stuff that needs to happen more!!! I have some friends in full size trucks that just think its the coolest thing to go to reiter burry themselves in 2 wheeldrvie and throw in 4 and dig a huge rut to get out I hate never went back with them!!!

As far as tire size goes 31's do barely any damage think about it at most there gonna be mounted on a small truck or sumthing. The biggest problem for reiter is its the only place fullsize guys can go and wheel at all. And if u have a lead foot or no skill FULLSIZES TEAR IT UP! I drive one its rediculous.

SPecific rig to trail designations, fees, fines for outlaws, and some actual montly volunteer work (more then just the usual guys) Trail maps, what the trail requires, descriptions. just my .02

 

[Dirtball]

OK let's see hopw many people i can piss off.....
we went up to Evan's last Saturday night before the swap meet and as we were leaving a few guys came out of the trail and we had a nice discussion while Karl was airing up the one guys tires for him. they had a nubie with them in a full size and they were laughing & joking about how he had "cramed" his rig all the way up the trail. i tried to let them know that bouncing off trees is not a good thing but the one response i got was. "hey, look at all the rigs around the web. they'er all bashed it. sometimes ya just gotta force it through.
Are we doing ourselves an injustus by naming something like BYS and expect people to understand we are not meaning to Beat the trail too. we laugh and kid each other on line about rolling and doing damage to our rigs but it looks like we are condoning bad driving and trail damage at the expence of "badges of honor"
IF YOU DONT FIT, DONT GO!

 

[Rich1]

OK let's see hopw many people i can piss off.....
we went up to Evan's last Saturday night before the swap meet and as we were leaving a few guys came out of the trail and we had a nice discussion while Karl was airing up the one guys tires for him. they had a nubie with them in a full size and they were laughing & joking about how he had "cramed" his rig all the way up the trail. i tried to let them know that bouncing off trees is not a good thing but the one response i got was. "hey, look at all the rigs around the web. they'er all bashed it. sometimes ya just gotta force it through.
Are we doing ourselves an injustus by naming something like BYS and expect people to understand we are not meaning to Beat the trail too. we laugh and kid each other on line about rolling and doing damage to our rigs but it looks like we are condoning bad driving and trail damage at the expence of "badges of honor"
IF YOU DONT FIT, DONT GO!

This is like a religious debate;

it will continue to go on & on...
---------------------------------

We just need to make INVINCIBLE SIGNAGE & SOME SORT OF TRAIL ENTRANCES THAT WARN & EDUCATE DRIVERS. after that, we can be the PATROLS that give them ****, if they do wrong / get stuck / tear it up / etc.
cause no matter what, ya know... we still have to UPKEEP the trails!!!

let's just make it a policy throughout WEBVILLE & forums to get this Trail Info in place somehow. based on users that KNOW the trails in specific to post up the advanced warnings & info on that trail. that might help. and when they get stuck / broke down or run across a responsible wheeler - like i said, then we can inform them / educate them in person.

state's never going to do what we can / could as fast. we can do it. if someone forms a commitee to get this MESSAGE out there on each TRAIL.

 

[Nuzzy]

The biggest problem I see is that almost everyone has different opinions on what exactly is ok and what isn't. There isn't necessarily one answer more fair than another cause someone will always be put out...

Some may think we shouldn't touch trees while other say as long as it's just the ones that border trails it's fine... Some want width restrictions (that don't effect their stock width rigs) while others want to be able to play with bigger rigs that can do more extreme ****...

Who has the right to tell others that that can't play just cause of XYZ. On the flip side, who has the right to get trails closed just cause they choose a rig that does more damage...

 

[lilyota]

Anybody can tear up a trail...are you saying that 42" iroks powered by 400+ HP in a buggy is going to do less damage then 31" MT spinning? It all comes down to the driver and if he knows when to quit spinning and get a tug/pull cable. The larger tired vehicle knows he can probably make it if he puts the pedal down a little more but that extra couple seconds does just as much damage as a 31" tire spinning for a lot longer time period

It has been taken in the wrong way. All I'm saying is the person that has the 42' or what ever problably wound not have to spin them to make it over the same obstical that the person with the 31s would. I know this from experince, I have ran the same trails with my truck on 33" tires then 36" and now 38" my truck was locked front and rear with a three tire sizes,with the 38s the obsticals are much easier to roll over instead of having your tire trying to climb over. Thats all I am saying.

 

[lilyota]

ever wonder how much fruit is touched by a person in a grocery store?

you grab a orange & feel it? naw, grab another one... hummm, naw... yet you grab another & maybe thats the one you want? on to the next person... & so on. as in this debate;

why can't we get the old timers / experienced offroaders / major clubs that have roots here in Washington state to come forward w/ a plan that would put all this debate crap to bed & just get EVERY SINGLE TRAIL SYSTEM, posted up & sanctioned w/ specific rules & requirements per trail.

once & for all.

wether it's new trails - one straight line w/ many easy to extreme obstacles w/ go arounds or already exsisting trail systems... just get the RIGHT people to map them out & for once & all, label them & put in place a system that GOVERNS them. w/ strict fines for people breaking the rules.

***Hence back to my suggestion of a OFFROAD LICENSE / PERMIT where the requirements to get it, would be a education in up to date rules & laws / trail guidlines / etc... and that money would pay for enforcement & upkeep / etc.

:corn: :corn: :corn:

X2


Evans Creek does have a trail map and is rated with what the trails are. I think Elbe does too

 

[hwcurtice]

My .02

Even though I am new to wheeling, the thing I find most offensive is the amount of trash people leave behind. Do people think there is some trash fairy that comes along and cleans things up? And not only trash, but vehicle parts as well. Now I've only been to Reiter, so I don't know how other Off Road Areas are, but it can get a bit disgusting. Yes, I have trash bags, but not knowing what is in the trash, I need some rubber gloves as well.

Last time I went, with the wife, the only place I tried to get through that was tight was on the lower (puddles) of Isabelle, and trying to see if I could steer through the bypasses that were there. Wife did a good job of warning me if I was going to hit something, and the only thing that hit was my right side mirror, but not enough to do anything but put it out of whack, again.

This may steps on some toes. I know some of the fun wheeling is drinking, and I'm not talking about Crash's favorite brew, but it worries me some when I see people drinking AND driving the trails. A couple weeks ago, with #1 Son, we were leaving Isabelle and passed two Jeeps that both drivers had a beer in their hand. I just don't think that is clear thinking.

I like the 'use this trail right' kind of thought process. Don't tear everything up. It only ruins it for the next guy. If I even think I might spin a bit, I get into 4Lo. Yes, Yoda is an automatic, but I think, and feel, this helps.

Like I said, just my .02. Maybe a few more....

 

[Rich1]

Every Trail is set up different & has different terrain, laws, rules, requirements, etc...

but I like what the - *(not to mention names / groups) have done at Tahuya. they have started to BOARDERLINE the exsisting trail system w/ fallen trees. marking off where the original lines / trail is & by doing so - it keeps you in line. unable to make a go around or stray off the trail. it's still a work in progress there. but if this was followed, like some places in california use cable / wire / etc to outline the trails. it keeps Rig's from making new trails.

WHY we do not have the INFORMATION for every trial availble is flabbergasting to me, when so much money is spent towards ORV tags / etc.
but again, it really comes down to "US" finding that AGREED on base, where we all can act on each others agreed terms to enforce the rules - to do trail write ups w/ info that can be placed on these forums and in stores or any place that a offroader can / could easily see the info.

again though, the biggest piece of this puzzle that is missing is a standard that all can AGREE on and figure out how to get that message out to everyone that uses trails.

meanwhile, nothing changes, irresponsible users will continue to abuse the property / trails / etc. responsible wheelers will clean up & try to educate to their best ability, guys that don't care will wheel a area thinking this is what the ORV area is for, thats why I'm here. and a guy in a stock rig will venture into a trail not knowing the path ahead or being prepared.

it's a BATTLE that we can get under control. w/ everyone on the same boat!

 

[Hellbilly]

I think gate keepers (You need to be this tall , locked and winch to ride this ride) Need to be put in place! If the gate keeper is harder than most obstacles on the trail we would not have trails that look like sac up does. And I will use this as an example the busy wild a couple weeks ago how many ill equipped rigs where on that adventure. I'm not picking on any body here just using it as an example. I now in all the pics I say on another site there weren't but a couple winch's in that whole group.

Just about every trail at reiter can be accessed by any rig your driving and precede to do unnecessary damage/make new by passes and tear the trail up. Just to get to the end of the trail. And not care one bit about the consequences.

 

[jeepmauler]

Sac up was built with a gate keeper...until it was cut out.Same goes for BYS and Upper tight ass.

 

[Rich1]

i don't know why i keep responding, there are so many good responses thus far, but...

I think Pokey summed it up a long time ago.

he said something along the lines of JOINING a club. a club of experienced Offroaders that have knowledge on the trails & what a rig should have to run them, and then you also have the / that teamwork that comes into play too.

-----------

for the most part, i think alot has to do w/ state involement w/ the trails.I wanted to get a RUN together to venture down to TSF to check out how they're doing things. but there wasn't much intrest / etc.

but it sounds like we have a few even on here that could chime in and possibly give some details on TSF & how they run it down there. i think no matter what is done, it still comes down to driver responsibility & the state educating everyone - Period that owns a 4WD vehicle.

***thats where the BIG PICTURE is, too many 4WD rig's and new or young people getting behind the wheel and thinking, let's go try this / that trail.
and then as most have done, finding out the hardway.

look at how many threads are posted in this way,

I'am so getting lockers

I'm going to get a winch

these 2 very heard statements are where you know your dealing w/ a under equipped rig, maybe not a driver... maybe theres a standard to follow...
no rig's w/o lockers or winches allowed on a trail. ????

maybe certain trails or area's - Ban tires larger than a certain size.

-----------------------------------



Ultimately, Pokey nailed it! but I still think / believe any 4wd owner needs to take a test or something to get a special pass / license & that funding could be used to open new areas / maintain them.

alright - Mr. type alot has said enough, hope something i said helped someone. or gave ideas to better our areas & users of them. :;

 

[Big Chief]

The other problem is what determines tearing things up. Should your tires not spin at all and what if they accidentally do? If a tires slips for a split second. If you spin a little bit, but do not dig holes. Look at Moab, tire spin happens a lot even with the best rigs. If happens only on rock is that OK, or should it be made a crime. Everyone has different ideas on what is right and wrong, but no two people can come to conclusion on what is best and have other agree. What if we agree to bring in dirt and rock to fix things that erode over time? I have a lot of ideas that differ from other people. I am willing to give a little if others are also. We need to find a comprimise and put our egos asside. If we do not we will not have any trails to wheel on because we took to long to find a solution therefor the easiest solution with the least hassle is to close them.
Also Extreme Rock Racing does not help PR for the public offroad industry. New guys see them going fast and spining tires to make it over obstacles and they think that is cool and they want to do it to. The only thing is that they do not realize that the events are generally on private land, or fixed shortly thereafter. They then take this knowledge to our public trails and proceed to tear things up in the same fashion.
We know there is a problem, and we know there is more than one solution. Lets just find the best overall solution and agree on it before it is to late.

 

[Not Jobless]

The only quick and dirty fix is to gate the main access points with 4x4/quad/bike go-arounds.

They keep the majority of the retards out that have their head up their ass that typically make bypasses, get stuck and need assistance from others...the uneducated.

Or they broke down in the access point around the main gate :haha:

Reiter has a big ass gate right out of the 1st parking area...they just need to close it and put up 2 more with access go-arounds

 

[Nuzzy]

We do need to make sure that we don't ***** down trails. I hate seeing paved roads just casue they "errode less".

 

[Nuzzy]

I think gate keepers (You need to be this tall , locked and winch to ride this ride) Need to be put in place!

I do like gate keepers if they can be properly maintained to keep dipshits out.

 

[426rider]

WHY we do not have the INFORMATION for every trial availble is flabbergasting to me, when so much money is spent towards ORV tags / etc.
but again, it really comes down to "US" finding that AGREED on base, where we all can act on each others agreed terms to enforce the rules - to do trail write ups w/ info that can be placed on these forums and in stores or any place that a offroader can / could easily see the info.

Who are you gonna get to write up this information? All the government money is spent somewhere else in the government. You have this great idea to document every trail out there, so do it. When you go on a run do a write up and post it on a website. Get a group together and get some write ups from them to post on the same website. It takes someone to do this stuff. On the other side not everyone that wheels gets on these forums or even the internet to look for this stuff.

To the idea of putting tire size/vehicle restrictions on trails is targeting the wrong people. The people that will abide by these restrictions are probably the ones with more experience that can get themselves through the trail with little to no assistence with lesser equipped vehicles. The ones that don't abide by the rules are also the ones that don't care how much damage is done.

The gatekeeper obstacle is a good idea. It gives even the first timer a good picture of what to expect on the trail. Yes it still takes someone to do this also but it would be part of a work party where we get some volunteers and equipment there to help. We could always use more help because there is more work needed than what few can do.

 

[white-rhyno]

Do any of you guys have pics of said destruction on trails or ORV parks?? I live in Ellensburg and have been on must of the trails, logging roads, etc over here and hardly see such activity. I have never been to browns camp, elbe, etc. Is there that much more traffic over there?

I guess the only trail i have been on that has been more tore up over the years is the shoe string on the way up to the funny rocks. I don't see any "senseless" destruction. Obstacles do get a little more interesting when the "little guys" spin their tires in an attempt to get to the top.

I guess in my opinion, as long as its just the "trail" and not the area around it getting tore up, whats it hurting? Or maybe I'm just mission the point.