Who Wants To Know How To Get Rid Of The Busywild Restriction

[Gibby1]

Elbe has always been extremely more challenging in the winter, do to lack of run off, good and bad. Good is there are no sediment issues in which I have a copy of a $20,000.00 biologist study that states that. and Bad they turn into Giant water holes in the winter.

Something that troubles me is I have heard a lot from Gibby about how we need to limit users and make rules and how bad it is up there. I see pics posted that's shows rock up there I have not heard anything about a organized work party to do anything about it. So far I just see finger pointing.
Elbe Requires several work parties each year to maintain it.
SO GIBBY WHEN IS THE NEXT WORK PARTY ? Soon would be good as you are getting plenty of attention.

You missed them. We had one in October specifically to work on the busywild. Nancy doesn't want the rock used until the holes dry out late next summer. There were several work parties this summer and hopefully when the Cascade 4x4s adopt some of the busywild, it will get a lot more maintenance.

You mentioned wanting to organize a mass community work party. Go for it. I'll do what I can to assist you.

 

[Gibby1]

That's great I still am asking for my self and all the readers What is the date of the next meeting. I have been asking for a week now with no response. I'm not getting any response back from you or Nancy on this. Kinda makes it look secrete, I hope that is not your intention?

I haven't received the official notice yet. You're on the mailing list Steve, you get the same focus group notices that I do.

I believe that it's January 8th but I don't recall if we were going to Tuesday or Thursday night meetings, which would make it the 10th.

 

[pokey]

30 + years ago this trail was built by flat fender jeeps. There are still a lot of flat fender guys around but they are getting pretty old now. The times are differant and the sport of 4 wheeling is changing. They were able to keep that trail to there selves pretty much up until about 8 years ago when they started doing all there logging up there. The logging opened up the trail system to many new users. I am also to blame because I organized work parties that included everyone not just the jeeps. People have been using the busy wild longer wheel bases pretty steady for the last 8 years. One problem is they are not building flat fenders any longer they are building longer wheel base vehicles. That trail has looked like it does for longer than i have been wheeling. I also own a jeep and I have been going up there for close to 20 years. I have seen plenty of damage caused by jeeps. Everyone thinks that the busy happened over night. When you look at it today you are looking at a trail that has been used for that last 30 + years with hardly any attention. The entire time I was a land manager we only worked on the busy from the dogleg bridge out, We spent our time replacing 5 bridges and rebuilding the rest of the park, building parking, get bathrooms, improving the campground fixing vandalism dealing with 100's of blow downs from leave trees, I could go on forever talking about our accomplishments. Until Nancy came along No one else ever saw it, when she arrived the first thing she did was walk the whole system. I do think the trail need some fixing, but feel you are correct in saying that we should not sissy it. And most of the wheelers i know wouldn't want to do that to that trail anyway regardless of what they are driving.

Hardly any attention:eeek: I tend to think a LOT of people would disagree with that. We have been maintaining the system and that trail ever since I have been wheeling (1979) ask Jerry Nettnin how many hours were logged before Steve and you took on the job its in the thousands if not 10s of thousands. The issue is with recent history is there has been this push to turn the busywild into a "hardcore" trail and the people that built and maintained it for so long have gotten fed up with not being able to use the trail without tearing their rigs apart. This whole issue is a catch 22 in the worst way. If you leave the trail the way it is your descriminating against the very people who built and maintained the trail for so long and losing their support along the way. If you pave or start putting limitations in placeit then you loose the support of the "hardcore" group" Personaly I dont think anybody has the right to change a trail from what it was into something that serves only one aspect of the sport. If people want hardcore only trails then they should be willing to do the same work as we did to build the trails we have. This means building NEW trails that suit their needs not revamping existing ones. I think the only way to "fix" the busy is to harden the bypasses around the bottomless holes. Do whatever it takes to keep the water and sediment issues contained and learn to work together to keep this trail open to ALL users that want to run it. The busy has always been a hard trail and should be kept that way but it shouldnt be an impossible trail for anyone with less than a 40" tire.

 

[Binder]

Steve, you're NOT paying attention. The DNR is NOT implementing tire restrictions, nor have they been talking about it, so stop suggesting that they will and stop being an alarmist. In fact the DNR has specifically stated that they are NOT considering implementing any tire restrictions. The USFS is the one rumored to be implementing tire size restrictions and that does NOT affect Elbe Hills or any other DNR land.

While I agree the creating a united front to show the DNR and USFS that we care is a great thing, as the moderators would say, "keep it on topic." The USFS and DNR are two completely different and independent branches of government and you are well aware of that.

What do you think is going to happen when the FS imposes tire size limits and everyone funnels to DNR trails. The already overused DNR trails are going to turn into rush hour freeways and you can bet that DNR will do what it takes to fix this problem.- Tire size limitations.

 

[Gibby1]

What do you think is going to happen when the FS imposes tire size limits and everyone funnels to DNR trails. The already overused DNR trails are going to turn into rush hour freeways and you can bet that DNR will do what it takes to fix this problem.- Tire size limitations.

I'm fully aware of that aspect and I've been letting Nancy know that if and when that comes through with the USFS, we need to be prepared to be handling all the big rigs that aren't allowed on USFS land. I'd be one of them and so would almost everyone in my own club.

That again is part of the motive behind having her set tires size LIMITATIONS as recommendations and not maximums. That's also part of the motivation for making the changes to the Rainier Vista trail and what we started to do with the Sunrise before the smaller rigs began complaining. I think Elbe is the premier wheeling park in SW Washington and I personally want it geared MORE to the hard core group that won't have access to USFS land if and when that happens. We need to upgrade 3 or 4 more of the trails to at least black diamond over the next few years if we can and that will really take the overuse stress of the busy.

It would be nice to build NEW trails but that's a VERY long process so if anyone has the time, get started now. Steve, maybe you should take on this project.

 

[Totalled]

Busy is the hardest trail at Elbe and should stay that way. Every trail should not be able to be run by a small tired, less built rig. Just like a ski resort there should be trails for different built rigs. Run the trails that your rig is built for, IMO this is how a good trail is destroyed by people not equipped running a trail they have no business running resulting in go arounds, full throddle attempts, breaking their rigs, winching over and over on trees making the root system weaker, and wadding their rig so bad that a massive rescue attempt needs to be made. I mean really, when was the last time you heard the guys with built rigs complain about a trail being too hard. Dont get me wrong as I am on the same side of the fence as all my brother offroaders, but there should be a trail system that allows everybody to wheel the kind of trail their rig was built for, not pave it because its too hard for my less built rig.:corn:

I don't disagree with you. My point is that the larger rigs have torn the busy (and several other local trails) up so bad, that even a rig that ran it with no problems only a year ago now doesn't have a chance...

So. If these restrictions do get shelved, I expect to see lots of LWB and big tired guys at work parties. Right? :; repair work is sorely needed.

EDIT: Pokey Nailed it. :awesomework: Jim.

 

[mud4funtoy]

I haven't received the official notice yet. You're on the mailing list Steve, you get the same focus group notices that I do.

I believe that it's January 8th but I don't recall if we were going to Tuesday or Thursday night meetings, which would make it the 10th.

Gibby could you call Nancy and find out for sure she will not return any of my calls.

 

[mud4funtoy]

You missed them. We had one in October specifically to work on the busywild. Nancy doesn't want the rock used until the holes dry out late next summer. There were several work parties this summer and hopefully when the Cascade 4x4s adopt some of the busywild, it will get a lot more maintenance.

You mentioned wanting to organize a mass community work party. Go for it. I'll do what I can to assist you.

I didn't make it to the region meetings and never saw any flyers in any of the shops. Sorry i missed it. Untill I logged on to read about this mess I had no Idea you Weren't getting the kind of help I used to. I will do what I can to help with that.

 

[mud4funtoy]

Hardly any attention:eeek: I tend to think a LOT of people would disagree with that. We have been maintaining the system and that trail ever since I have been wheeling (1979) ask Jerry Nettnin how many hours were logged before Steve and you took on the job its in the thousands if not 10s of thousands. The issue is with recent history is there has been this push to turn the busywild into a "hardcore" trail and the people that built and maintained it for so long have gotten fed up with not being able to use the trail without tearing their rigs apart. This whole issue is a catch 22 in the worst way. If you leave the trail the way it is your descriminating against the very people who built and maintained the trail for so long and losing their support along the way. If you pave or start putting limitations in placeit then you loose the support of the "hardcore" group" Personaly I dont think anybody has the right to change a trail from what it was into something that serves only one aspect of the sport. If people want hardcore only trails then they should be willing to do the same work as we did to build the trails we have. This means building NEW trails that suit their needs not revamping existing ones. I think the only way to "fix" the busy is to harden the bypasses around the bottomless holes. Do whatever it takes to keep the water and sediment issues contained and learn to work together to keep this trail open to ALL users that want to run it. The busy has always been a hard trail and should be kept that way but it shouldnt be an impossible trail for anyone with less than a 40" tire.

I dont see why that trail cant serve everyones needs all we half to do is all get together and make it happen.

 

[mud4funtoy]

I'm fully aware of that aspect and I've been letting Nancy know that if and when that comes through with the USFS, we need to be prepared to be handling all the big rigs that aren't allowed on USFS land. I'd be one of them and so would almost everyone in my own club.

That again is part of the motive behind having her set tires size LIMITATIONS as recommendations and not maximums. That's also part of the motivation for making the changes to the Rainier Vista trail and what we started to do with the Sunrise before the smaller rigs began complaining. I think Elbe is the premier wheeling park in SW Washington and I personally want it geared MORE to the hard core group that won't have access to USFS land if and when that happens. We need to upgrade 3 or 4 more of the trails to at least black diamond over the next few years if we can and that will really take the overuse stress of the busy.

It would be nice to build NEW trails but that's a VERY long process so if anyone has the time, get started now. Steve, maybe you should take on this project.

My first project is seeing that we all have equal rights to the busy and stopping this type of discrimination before it expands to other trail systems.
If we accomplish that then we will talk about how I might be of best use and I will help you if I can.

 

[CHOP SHOP]

Pat, I don't think you'd stand a chance on the busy right now. With the exception of the enclosed quads, aka sammi (a little poke at my sammi friends ) If you're not locked front and rear and running large tires, you're NOT getting through the busy without significant damage and a LONG winchfest. At least not at this time of year. You're want to have a darn good winch and be running a couple of batteries and a high out put alternator for the amount of winching you'd need.

Porter said the water in some of the whole was ABOVE his 40" tires. I've seen recent pics with mud up above the bumpers on lifted cherokees.

we winched once today on the whole trail with 38s ot all three rigs. the place we got hung up we chose the hardest/deepest line. and ran it in 1.5 hours flat.:flipoff:

 

[W.I.P.]

I was on the busy for 30 hours in february. I say leave it open to all rigs...

 

[mud4funtoy]

I was on the other post and I see that Gibby is saying that he does not support the length restriction and will not support a tire restriction. I am glad to see he is getting on the right side of the fence. THANK YOU GIBBY.
I don't believe though that he can do this all on his own and I think it would be departmental to our sport if all of you choose not to show up.

 

[Binder]

So. If these restrictions do get shelved, I expect to see lots of LWB and big tired guys at work parties. Right? :;.

Why would you single out "big tired guys"? This is not the issue at hand nor are large tires causing and problems.

 

[Comet]

I said I would let this go if people keep the personal attacks out. Next one making posts like I had to delete gets banned from the thread.

Comet
Trails Mod.

 

[Binder]

I said I would let this go if people keep the personal attacks out. Next one making posts like I had to delete gets banned from the thread.

Comet
Trails Mod.

Except that we don't know what you deleted.:scratchhead:

 

[megatoy66]

Mine was deleted and was not a personal attack, just my opinion that was all.
I hate walking on pins and needles around here.

 

[SUB]

Ok, so I have taking the time to read the whole thread in one sitting. I may not be on the board all the time posting, but, I do read a lot.

There is another option most of you have not thought of IMO. Build an ORV park that is on private land. If everyone who is a TRUE WHEELER donated a small monetary value to a newly organized association designed just for this ORV Park. It could be built with minimum to maximum standards. This would lessen the impact on the environment and you would not have to deal with politicians.

We all have to travel at least one to two hours to get the sites for wheeling. What would it take to get it online. I would be willing to donate $500 to $1000 to have a private ORV park. This could be considered a Co-Op. The people that use the park/camp ground would have to pay a small fee.

The Park could be built with guidelines and with regular maintenance. Why can't we pull all our resources to build a park. I know Gibby and Jaydog have equipment. I am pretty sure if this was to happen, they would donate equipment time. This is just two out of potentially countless donators/users. I know of others with equipment that would donate time and equipment. And this is just some of the resources.

I know this could be potentially off the subject but this a potential solution to stop dealing with politicians and the likes. :redneck:

 

[pokey]

:flipoff:

Mine was deleted and was not a personal attack, just my opinion that was all.
I hate walking on pins and needles around here.

well I doubt that you have to worry about gibby anymore since all this BS and hating crap he has quit his job with Elbe. Thanks Guys:awesomework:

 

[pokey]

Ok, so I have taking the time to read the whole thread in one sitting. I may not be on the board all the time posting, but, I do read a lot.

There is another option most of you have not thought of IMO. Build an ORV park that is on private land. If everyone who is a TRUE WHEELER donated a small monetary value to a newly organized association designed just for this ORV Park. It could be built with minimum to maximum standards. This would lessen the impact on the environment and you would not have to deal with politicians.

We all have to travel at least one to two hours to get the sites for wheeling. What would it take to get it online. I would be willing to donate $500 to $1000 to have a private ORV park. This could be considered a Co-Op. The people that use the park/camp ground would have to pay a small fee.

The Park could be built with guidelines and with regular maintenance. Why can't we pull all our resources to build a park. I know Gibby and Jaydog have equipment. I am pretty sure if this was to happen, they would donate equipment time. This is just two out of potentially countless donators/users. I know of others with equipment that would donate time and equipment. And this is just some of the resources.

I know this could be potentially off the subject but this a potential solution to stop dealing with politicians and the likes. :redneck:

Problem is that private landowners have to follow the same rules and laws that the DNR and FS do. It might be a little easier but you would still need to do all of the studies as they do costing big $s and then theres the nimbys and the lawsuits, again big bucks and the overall blockage. Wheelers are cheap heck they dont even support their own orgs that keep the trails open:booo: well at least most. Some are smarter than others:cheer: Not saying its a bad idea because its not Its a great idea just not practical