Who Wants To Know How To Get Rid Of The Busywild Restriction

[pokey]

We have to do something similar with several other sections as well so that we can keep the difficult parts because some of this is REALLY getting torn up and the winter wheeling season will make a mess of these areas. The spring work parties are going to require a LOT of work

We were in there a couple weekend ago with our little jeeps on 33s:redneck: and decided after the first 1/4 mile(busywild) that it wasn't worth the damage to the rigs playing submarine. The holes in there are getting ridiculously deep and I foresee a lot of rescue missions over the winter. I as well as many others who have spent countless hours on trail maintenance are saddened to see this trail destroyed to the point that only a skidder sized vehicle can run it. I also believe that its this reason that the numbers of involved wheelers at work partys has dropped off so much. People are just tired of busting their butts and then not being able to use the trail:booo: I don't agree with the restrictions that are being put in place (although its not the place for full-size rigs) But something has to be done to protect the trail. I like the rocked bypasses idea, its either that or put a solid bottom in the holes so rigs can get thru without digging such deep pits. Steve and I had a long conversation about these things this morning and I agree with him that its not fair to limit wheelbase that eliminates a good size group of the users (I don't agree thats its 50% more like 20) but I can certainly see why he's so upset after his years of hard work and now he may be turned away. I don't quite agree with his methods though and asked him to try working with the PNW and Gibby to get this issue corrected. I sent Nancy a e-mail asking her to not make any decisions until we have a chance to discuss the issue at our Jan. region 2 meeting. I know full well that many of you don't support the PNW and it mission but for those that do I simply ask you to not act hastily and wait for the consciences of the group and help keep the fragile relationship that we have with the DNR alive and well. Thanks Jim

BTW. I am running for the landmatters chair for region 2 for 2008

 

[mud4funtoy]

I have not heard anything from Nancy. I have left 4 messages. I am hearing from a lot of you that she is willing to talk about it at the next focus group meeting. Which I currently don't have a date for but have asked for and not received yet. I will back off a little by not informing all the businesses in the surrounding communities until we see what the outcome of that meeting is. I do not think that it is a good idea to quit talking to Nancy or the other DNR Officials. Between now and that meeting it is our chance to communicate with them our concerns. Dale said she might be able to get her bosses to show up. I think we should make it so they will want to be there whether she wants them or not. We need to have a huge showing at the focus meeting, We need to bring our rigs if we can. We need to fill the parking lot. WE NEED TO FILL THE ROOM.

When I was the pnw rep, I never felt I was just representing them. I always felt I represented the people all the people. I never had a problem getting people to come to the work parties, We accumulated close to 13,000 volunteer hours in 3 years. Some of the volunteers were pnw and allot were not. I think if the pnw starts representing all the differant types of users they will build the membership and get more volunteers. From the last 2 posts 1 form Gibby and 1 from pokey it seems they want to start in that direction.
This is a good thing.
Although this does not mean that we all should throw in the towel and let the PNW figure it out for us. WE ALL NEED TO BE AT THAT MEETING.

 

[CHOP SHOP]

WE ALL NEED TO BE AT THAT MEETING.

se ya there!:beer:

 

[mud4funtoy]

We were in there a couple weekend ago with our little jeeps on 33s:redneck: and decided after the first 1/4 mile(busywild) that it wasn't worth the damage to the rigs playing submarine. The holes in there are getting ridiculously deep and I foresee a lot of rescue missions over the winter. I as well as many others who have spent countless hours on trail maintenance are saddened to see this trail destroyed to the point that only a skidder sized vehicle can run it. I also believe that its this reason that the numbers of involved wheelers at work partys has dropped off so much. People are just tired of busting their butts and then not being able to use the trail:booo: I don't agree with the restrictions that are being put in place (although its not the place for full-size rigs) But something has to be done to protect the trail. I like the rocked bypasses idea, its either that or put a solid bottom in the holes so rigs can get thru without digging such deep pits. Steve and I had a long conversation about these things this morning and I agree with him that its not fair to limit wheelbase that eliminates a good size group of the users (I don't agree thats its 50% more like 20) but I can certainly see why he's so upset after his years of hard work and now he may be turned away. I don't quite agree with his methods though and asked him to try working with the PNW and Gibby to get this issue corrected. I sent Nancy a e-mail asking her to not make any decisions until we have a chance to discuss the issue at our Jan. region 2 meeting. I know full well that many of you don't support the PNW and it mission but for those that do I simply ask you to not act hastily and wait for the consciences of the group and help keep the fragile relationship that we have with the DNR alive and well. Thanks Jim

BTW. I am running for the landmatters chair for region 2 for 2008

Sounds like it has been a while since you ran the busy with those little tires. I have been running that trail with 36 " tires for the last 5 years and my longer wheel base helps me get over things that the little jeeps get hung up on I think if you spent more time up at Elbe you would see that for a long time now that most of the users own Toyota's I say 50 + % you say 20 %
I am glad to hear that you don't agree with this rule, because when I started this thread I was being told that I needed to get over it and just except it.
It is clear it would be nice if we all worked together to change this rule. I have not heard any input from Arlene Brooks the WA state land matters director that would suggest that the pnw will fight this. I know the pnw moves slow. I like your idea of building by passes and leaving places to play along the way as long as we had some kind of guarantee that once they were established they would not become the trail. ALL OF US USERS OUT HERE THAT ARE BEING DENIED ACCESS TO THAT TRAIL NEED TO CONTINUE TO FIGHT FOR OUR RIGHTS. No one represents us better than ourselves. Make the phone calls and continue to send the emails and as soon as we get a FOCUS meeting date MOTIVATE your friends to be there. FOR ONCE YOU ARE GOING TO BE GIVEN THE CHANCE TO HAVE A VOICE. Because of all of YOUR efforts. Keep up all the good work And here is a new phone number for you. I have not got a call back yet but i left a message. This is one of those people that might show up to the meeting. He is is in charge of all the South Puget sound area. His name is
Randy work # 253 360 825 1632 cell # 350 - 0281 Remember be friendly, Friendly gets our conversations allot further.

 

[mud4funtoy]

Another thing to remember is DNR hardly ever communicates with each other. I have seen this many times. I have seen it today. If Nancy can't make a decision at the next focus meeting we need to be sure that someone will be there that can.

 

[mud4funtoy]

Another thing I was thinking Longer wheel base does not always mean longer rig. a lot of those Toyota's out there are custom. We need to bring our Wheelers to the focus meeting so we can show the powers to be what they are discriminating against. It would be cool to see Gibby's rig out there with a 106 " wheel base along side a Toyota with 112" wheel base that has a custom bed like so many of you do.

 

[Gibby1]

Sounds like it has been a while since you ran the busy with those little tires. I have been running that trail with 36 " tires for the last 5 years and my longer wheel base helps me get over things that the little jeeps get hung up on I think if you spent more time up at Elbe you would see that for a long time now that most of the users own Toyota's I say 50 + % you say 20 %

Steve, even if 50% of the users drive Toyota's that doesn't mean that they're over the 109" proposed limit. You guys are debating apples and oranges. The most popular Toyotas on the trail are the shorter wheel base toyotas. So, the proposed restriction is not blocking out 50% of the users, that's just plain inaccurate. In my club, we have 1 vehicle that doesn't meet the length restriction that's JR with the full size exploder. We have 4 Toyota's in the club and they all fall under the 109" length as do the Jeeps. Now, the Dakata probably fit doesn't but he wouldn't stand a chance on the busywild anyway and I'd make him park and ride with one of us.

Even if you take the numbers straight up and say 50% of the vehicles are Toyota and 50% of them don't meed the new guidelines, that make 25% of the people that are blocked out, not 50% are you're telling everyone.

I'm not arguing the point about whether or not the length is appropriate or not. I just want to get some clarity and correction on the numbers that you are passing around.

 

[CHOP SHOP]

there are a ton of rigs other than toys that are not fullsize that still are affected. = scout traveller for intance.

and I hate to say it gibby but using your club for an example is not accurate. your club members dont accurately represent the wheeling community as a whole.


wheeling clubs seem to be geared toward people getting started offroad. many club members will modify thier rigs to a point were they stray away from the club scene.
I think alot of users at elbe are not affiliated with a club.

alot of folks with stretched and well set up rigs have exceded the club level.

winching the busy is not my idea of fun. driving it is! build for the trail.:beer:

 

[mud4funtoy]

I'm not comparing apples and oranges. I am just asking that the people who have been using that trail all along continue to have access to it. If putman wants to run 33's that's his business he can run just about everything on the east side with those tires.

 

[mud4funtoy]

GIBBY WHEN IS THE NEXT FOCUS GROUP MEETING Is it still 7 pm at the old fire station on 304th, To bad she can't get a bigger place, I'm not planning a lynch mob, But I would like her to see that there are a lot of people that care about that rule. and that trail. I would be satisfied if we Got 200 - 300 people out there

 

[Totalled]

I ran the Busy last year with 34s just fine. if the trail has been DAMAGED to the point that I no longer can do it on medium sized tires, then the trail DAMAGE needs to be repaired. Fill in the :rb: ass mud holes caused by people that think they need to mud bog. The busy as been a Jeep wheelbase and 33s trail forever. If it's been DAMAGED to the point that it is no longer passable by the vehicles it was built for, then it's time to repair it. Build your rig to fit the trails in your area, quit changing the trails to fit your big tired, over sized rig.

:corn:

 

[Gibby1]

I ran the Busy last year with 34s just fine. if the trail has been DAMAGED to the point that I no longer can do it on medium sized tires, then the trail DAMAGE needs to be repaired. Fill in the :rb: ass mud holes caused by people that think they need to mud bog. The busy as been a Jeep wheelbase and 33s trail forever. If it's been DAMAGED to the point that it is no longer passable by the vehicles it was built for, then it's time to repair it. Build your rig to fit the trails in your area, quit changing the trails to fit your big tired, over sized rig.

:corn:

Pat, I don't think you'd stand a chance on the busy right now. With the exception of the enclosed quads, aka sammi (a little poke at my sammi friends ) If you're not locked front and rear and running large tires, you're NOT getting through the busy without significant damage and a LONG winchfest. At least not at this time of year. You're want to have a darn good winch and be running a couple of batteries and a high out put alternator for the amount of winching you'd need.

Porter said the water in some of the whole was ABOVE his 40" tires. I've seen recent pics with mud up above the bumpers on lifted cherokees.

 

[Gibby1]

GIBBY WHEN IS THE NEXT FOCUS GROUP MEETING Is it still 7 pm at the old fire station on 304th, To bad she can't get a bigger place, I'm not planning a lynch mob, But I would like her to see that there are a lot of people that care about that rule. and that trail. I would be satisfied if we Got 200 - 300 people out there

Yes, same place.

 

[pokey]

Pat, I don't think you'd stand a chance on the busy right now. With the exception of the enclosed quads, aka sammi (a little poke at my sammi friends ) If you're not locked front and rear and running large tires, you're NOT getting through the busy without significant damage and a LONG winchfest. At least not at this time of year. You're want to have a darn good winch and be running a couple of batteries and a high out put alternator for the amount of winching you'd need.

Porter said the water in some of the whole was ABOVE his 40" tires. I've seen recent pics with mud up above the bumpers on lifted cherokees.

yep gotta agree, 2 weeks ago it was up to the headlights on jeeps with 33s and 4" lifts. Not worth the damage to the running gear anymore:booo: We ran the trail in early summer and had no issues

 

[PORTER]

I ran the Busy last year with 34s just fine. if the trail has been DAMAGED to the point that I no longer can do it on medium sized tires, then the trail DAMAGE needs to be repaired. Fill in the :rb: ass mud holes caused by people that think they need to mud bog. The busy as been a Jeep wheelbase and 33s trail forever. If it's been DAMAGED to the point that it is no longer passable by the vehicles it was built for, then it's time to repair it. Build your rig to fit the trails in your area, quit changing the trails to fit your big tired, over sized rig.

:corn:

I will completely disagree with you on this topic. The Busy is the hardest trail at Elbe and should stay that way. Every trail should not be able to be run by a small tired, less built rig. Just like a ski resort there should be trails for different built rigs. Run the trails that your rig is built for, IMO this is how a good trail is destroyed by people not equipped running a trail they have no business running resulting in go arounds, full throddle attempts, breaking their rigs, winching over and over on trees making the root system weaker, and wadding their rig so bad that a massive rescue attempt needs to be made. I mean really, when was the last time you heard the guys with built rigs complain about a trail being too hard. Dont get me wrong as I am on the same side of the fence as all my brother offroaders, but there should be a trail system that allows everybody to wheel the kind of trail their rig was built for, not pave it because its too hard for my less built rig.:corn:

 

[mud4funtoy]

I woke up this morning with a scary thought. If this rule gets passed then what is next? Probably Tire restrictions. They been talking about that for a while.
Here is the scary thought, If we allow this to happen on 1 trail, what is to stop it from becoming a standard on all the trails. What if the forest service who is a differant agency adopts the same plan.
Right now it is just the busy wild. Our government always starts of saying its just this one little place. people think because it doesn't effect them it is OK to let it go. That's how they get us one rule at a time.
LETS BAN TOGETHER AND FIGHT THIS BEFORE IT BECOME THE STANDARD FOR ALL TRAILS

 

[mud4funtoy]

Pat, I don't think you'd stand a chance on the busy right now. With the exception of the enclosed quads, aka sammi (a little poke at my sammi friends ) If you're not locked front and rear and running large tires, you're NOT getting through the busy without significant damage and a LONG winchfest. At least not at this time of year. You're want to have a darn good winch and be running a couple of batteries and a high out put alternator for the amount of winching you'd need.

Porter said the water in some of the whole was ABOVE his 40" tires. I've seen recent pics with mud up above the bumpers on lifted cherokees.

Elbe has always been extremely more challenging in the winter, do to lack of run off, good and bad. Good is there are no sediment issues in which I have a copy of a $20,000.00 biologist study that states that. and Bad they turn into Giant water holes in the winter.

Something that troubles me is I have heard a lot from Gibby about how we need to limit users and make rules and how bad it is up there. I see pics posted that's shows rock up there I have not heard anything about a organized work party to do anything about it. So far I just see finger pointing.
Elbe Requires several work parties each year to maintain it.
SO GIBBY WHEN IS THE NEXT WORK PARTY ? Soon would be good as you are getting plenty of attention.

 

[mud4funtoy]

Yes, same place.

That's great I still am asking for my self and all the readers What is the date of the next meeting. I have been asking for a week now with no response. I'm not getting any response back from you or Nancy on this. Kinda makes it look secrete, I hope that is not your intention?

 

[mud4funtoy]

Yes, same place.

I will completely disagree with you on this topic. The Busy is the hardest trail at Elbe and should stay that way. Every trail should not be able to be run by a small tired, less built rig. Just like a ski resort there should be trails for different built rigs. Run the trails that your rig is built for, IMO this is how a good trail is destroyed by people not equipped running a trail they have no business running resulting in go arounds, full throddle attempts, breaking their rigs, winching over and over on trees making the root system weaker, and wadding their rig so bad that a massive rescue attempt needs to be made. I mean really, when was the last time you heard the guys with built rigs complain about a trail being too hard. Dont get me wrong as I am on the same side of the fence as all my brother offroaders, but there should be a trail system that allows everybody to wheel the kind of trail their rig was built for, not pave it because its too hard for my less built rig.:corn:

30 + years ago this trail was built by flat fender jeeps. There are still a lot of flat fender guys around but they are getting pretty old now. The times are differant and the sport of 4 wheeling is changing. They were able to keep that trail to there selves pretty much up until about 8 years ago when they started doing all there logging up there. The logging opened up the trail system to many new users. I am also to blame because I organized work parties that included everyone not just the jeeps. People have been using the busy wild longer wheel bases pretty steady for the last 8 years. One problem is they are not building flat fenders any longer they are building longer wheel base vehicles. That trail has looked like it does for longer than i have been wheeling. I also own a jeep and I have been going up there for close to 20 years. I have seen plenty of damage caused by jeeps. Everyone thinks that the busy happened over night. When you look at it today you are looking at a trail that has been used for that last 30 + years with hardly any attention. The entire time I was a land manager we only worked on the busy from the dogleg bridge out, We spent our time replacing 5 bridges and rebuilding the rest of the park, building parking, get bathrooms, improving the campground fixing vandalism dealing with 100's of blow downs from leave trees, I could go on forever talking about our accomplishments. Until Nancy came along No one else ever saw it, when she arrived the first thing she did was walk the whole system. I do think the trail need some fixing, but feel you are correct in saying that we should not sissy it. And most of the wheelers i know wouldn't want to do that to that trail anyway regardless of what they are driving.

 

[Gibby1]

I woke up this morning with a scary thought. If this rule gets passed then what is next? Probably Tire restrictions. They been talking about that for a while.
Here is the scary thought, If we allow this to happen on 1 trail, what is to stop it from becoming a standard on all the trails. What if the forest service who is a differant agency adopts the same plan.
Right now it is just the busy wild. Our government always starts of saying its just this one little place. people think because it doesn't effect them it is OK to let it go. That's how they get us one rule at a time.
LETS BAN TOGETHER AND FIGHT THIS BEFORE IT BECOME THE STANDARD FOR ALL TRAILS

Steve, you're NOT paying attention. The DNR is NOT implementing tire restrictions, nor have they been talking about it, so stop suggesting that they will and stop being an alarmist. In fact the DNR has specifically stated that they are NOT considering implementing any tire restrictions. The USFS is the one rumored to be implementing tire size restrictions and that does NOT affect Elbe Hills or any other DNR land.

While I agree the creating a united front to show the DNR and USFS that we care is a great thing, as the moderators would say, "keep it on topic." The USFS and DNR are two completely different and independent branches of government and you are well aware of that.