Elbe Meeting outcome

[Gibby1]

How many times have we heard that we need to get more people involved in these issues? Now you want to propose changes that would keep people from being involved in these meetings?

I had a detailed response, but it's not even worth it. To keep it short, No, I didn't propose changes to keep people from being involved, I proposed changes to get more accomplished.

 

[Gibby1]

x2

maybe we can get the DNR guy to have a productive meeting instead of the lets go home deal. he was a dork and does not care. just full of BS.

the dnr heard us and butterd us up now says nothings changed.:booo:

lets get the same group at all these meetings together and sooner or later they will have to make decisions at a meeting in front of people instead of shuffling everybody home so they can opperate as usual:booo:

Brad, that's just not the way things work.

I agree, let's get everyone back out, but like I said before the last meeting, not everyone's going to have a chance to say what they want to say and there's simply nothing procedurally in place to deal with a group that size. They have to restructure HOW they do the meetings.

This is a typical response that we heard when the restrictions were first introduced. Respond with workable alternatives, not a bunch a garbage about what you DON'T want or what you didn't like.

A postive response about better ways to manage the focus groups to get more productivity.

In the PNW4WDA, we have some meetings with large numbers, but there's structure to the meetings designed to deal with larger number. A head table with all the significant parties, a microphone in the middle that EVERYONE has to use to pose a question, a voting system based on Roberts rules of order. In this way large groups can have effective meetings. The focus group format is NOT designed to handle large groups in over filled buildings.

If you don't like my suggestion FINE, suggest something better and give it some serious thought about how it would work, where else it works and why it would work better.

 

[Binder]

I had a detailed response, but it's not even worth it. To keep it short, No, I didn't propose changes to keep people from being involved, I proposed changes to get more accomplished.

I didn't say you did it to keep people from getting involved. Essentialy I said that's what you're doing.
Think about the big picture man!

 

[TreeClimber]

I had a detailed response, but it's not even worth it. To keep it short, No, I didn't propose changes to keep people from being involved, I proposed changes to get more accomplished.

I know that. It's plainly evident.

But it's an impasse because too many people equal no progress and not enough people mean reverse progress.

Getting forward progress.... now how does that get done?

And your idea may be one of the few functional ones

 

[gasman1]

Come on guys dont get your panties in a bunch. :stirpot:

Do you really expect that many people to show up at the next meeting?
I bet not. Many people only came because they were told that the busy was going to shut down and we know that was rumor. they would have lost interest already. you can tell by the chatter on the forum. There is only a select few poeple that will stay involve from here on out. Other wise most people that were there will get there info from others.

You may a large number of people at the next meeting, but the numbers will dwendle down as summer gets closer and they have better things to do.

That is my prediction.........:;

 

[rollnhvy]

Just got home and opened my email...

 

[Jaydog]

How many times have we heard that we need to get more people involved in these issues? Now you want to propose changes that would keep people from being involved in these meetings?

Two different things, it's called politics. If everyone that wheeled was a member of a club and that club was a member of a large organization, and the club had two delegates that would attend monthly meetings at this large organization, then they would all be well informed and would have a democratic voice in the way things work. The democratic way works a lot better than a mob mentality, sure we got their attention, but did we really accomplish anything?

 

[pokey]

Two different things, it's called politics. If everyone that wheeled was a member of a club and that club was a member of a large organization, and the club had two delegates that would attend monthly meetings at this large organization, then they would all be well informed and would have a democratic voice in the way things work. The democratic way works a lot better than a mob mentality, sure we got their attention, but did we really accomplish anything?

:awesomework: :cheer: :awesomework: :cheer: :awesomework: :cheer:

 

[Binder]

The democratic way works a lot better than a mob mentality, sure we got their attention, but did we really accomplish anything?

Probably not but I'm for one tired of hearing the cop out "we need more people to get involved and come to these meetings or the sport is doomed".

 

[gasman1]

See thats what i also have noticed.

Before the meeting it ws get involved. Now, its to many people to get the job done so just sit back and watch wile the select few do the talking for everyone and just show up to do the work.

THATS THE ATTITUTDE THAT WILL GET PEOPLE TO SAY :flipoff:

 

[Jaydog]

Probably not but I'm for one tired of hearing the cop out "we need more people to get involved and come to these meetings or the sport is doomed".

You're right, If half of the people that went to that meeting would help out in a work party we wouldn't be where we are today, it's the users that run the trails but never put forth the effort to make it to a work party that chaps my butt.

 

[Rich1]

See thats what i also have noticed.

Before the meeting it ws get involved. Now, its to many people to get the job done so just sit back and watch wile the select few do the talking for everyone and just show up to do the work.

THATS THE ATTITUTDE THAT WILL GET PEOPLE TO SAY :flipoff:

Exactly;

The sky is falling - the sky is falling!

=============================================

Problem solved;

Anyone who wants to offroad at Elbe, 1st has to put in voluntary work hours to gain a offroad permit for the area.

Bet that will get the attention, or we'll see the trail really clear up quick!

...... Disgree all you want, but that right there would solve 95% of the issues.

 

[Gibby1]

Problem solved;

Anyone who wants to offroad at Elbe, 1st has to put in voluntary work hours to gain a offroad permit for the area.

Bet that will get the attention, or we'll see the trail really clear up quick!

...... Disgree all you want, but that right there would solve 95% of the issues.

I've been putting that idea on the table for a couple of years now.

 

[Rich1]

I've been putting that idea on the table for a couple of years now.

It could be "AIMED" directly at Elbe only and just the "BusyWild" trail.

I do not think many would have issues with this plan. It could be done as easy as - Permits issued for free based on volunteered hours, or user's paying permit fee's if unable to volunteer to work.

-------- Done.

We seen alot of users come and go, some only traveling a few times a year to the busywild. then never returning or taking part in the work to repair or keep the trails open.

GIBBY, I bet alot would go for this idea as well as the DNR. how to impliment it / enforce it would be tough, but I'am sure with a stiff penalty / fine hanging over someone's head, they'd obey and avoid it without the permit.

 

[Gibby1]

Rich, the best way for an option like this to work is to make it state wide on all DNR land.

Whether someone works at Reiter, Tahuya, Walker Valley or Elbe, they get a one year pass to hang on their mirror (or somewhere on their vehicle like a forest service pass) with their name on it and it allows them to run in all DNR ORV areas (official or unofficial).

Now here's what I think is a cool, related idea... and I'll will work on this for sure.

I'd like to see the PNW4WDA through it's various regions, offer a basic 4WD education/safety program that is standardized. Start by making it a required course for ALL of it's members. Once it's up, running and well established it could be implemented further as part of a pass system. We're only talking about maybe 2 hours. It could be put on as part of a work party so that someone could go to a work party, get their 1 time education class completed and their annual work party requirement all at once.

An education course would include the basics of trail etiquete and safety, winching techniques, proper technique for strapping, information about tread lightly, proper safety/emergency equipment to take on the trail etc. It really could be 2 hours with some demos, instructional literature and a short quiz.

Make it optional at first but available at work parties for those who want to take it. Once they have, they're done. Down the road in a year or two, make it required to get your pass.

I KNOW that a bunch are going to say that they don't want any more rules nor waste time taking a basic class when they've been wheeling for years... BUT if a couple hours of time helps educate all the people who don't have this info, then it's worth it for everyone in the long run...

 

[Dogfather]

Wow Rich Gibby you guys are really coming up with something now...

A Issued Pass, That would give Nancy/DNR some teeth, if you have this pass you run the Trails, No pass Leave get off the trails, get a ticket, then if they have the pass they have been told about the requirements and signed a written agreement to abide by the Rules We as the wheeling community have imposed. Only folks that Pay are those that can't come to work parties, I think the training should be mandatory. Heck I think Work Party attendance or you can't wheel should be mandatory. I for one being a disabled Vet know what my limits are and can't to too much Physical but I can bend over and pick up trash.....

Great Ideas Guys

 

[Binder]

Good idea but it's more rules with no more enforcement. Who's going to check for this pass? There's not enough enforcement for the rules in place now.

 

[Gibby1]

Why would someone be ABLE to wheel, but not ABLE to come to a work party? Work party help can be looking at the camp, keeping track of who's doing what. It doesn't have to me slinging mud or hauling rocks.

If you can make the time to build and wheel a rig, you can make the time to come to a work party. I'm suggesting only 1 per year, that shouldn't be hard.

This is about a few issues.
1) Ownership of the trails. People who WORK on the trails take ownership of the trail and are more likely to respect them and don't want to see their work trashed.
2) Education of users so that everyone has a baseline understanding.
3) We need people to help out and show the USFS and DNR that the volunteer base IS there.
4) We raise funds and political power with our volunteer support. These hours are tracked and reported. This also has an effect on how the funds are divided up when it comes to grants...

We live in an entitlement culture now and the younger crowd won't help out for the sake of helping out (remember, we're generalizing here) as was true of the culture 20-30 years ago. So, we have to consider alternative methods.

 

[Gibby1]

Good idea but it's more rules with no more enforcement. Who's going to check for this pass? There's not enough enforcement for the rules in place now.

Same way they do at the USFS. Ranger runs around and looks for passes. IF the funding goes through for the trail stewards (It was denied in the legislature last session.) there will be more people available to enforce rules.

The Forest Watch program people can also assist in enforcement. They won't have ticket writing abilities but they can talk to people about the need to have the passes.

Not everyone who goes on the trail is going to get caught but make the fines substantial enough to make it worthwhile to NOT get caught.

We need to encourage and support out of the box ideas as the status quo is heading us downhill. Initiatives like this brought about BY the 4x4 community will do more for PR when in comes to dealing with those who are against us than most would think. More people at work parties and less people damaging the trails intentionally (or out of plain stupidity) means better trail systems, campgrounds, etc.

 

[rooinater]

skipped over a few posts... but...
i know on blm land in california they have implemented passes and permits. Glamis is a prime example. 100 bucks for a year, 25 bucks for a week. fines for not having one were the same as an annual pass, and on top of that you were required to buy a pass for that time. whether a annual pass, or a week pass.

for washington you could put on the table, for 4wheeldrive use on dnr lands, you must participate in so many hours of working parties at your local dnr orv area, or pay $xx for an annual permit, or $xx for a week pass. similar to national forest lands also. that would help generate money for trail repairs, upgrades, (the unlikely event that we could build a new trail) or any campground needs also. Which would help increase the number of people at the work parties and increase revenue for trail related needs or enforcement of the area. just a thought on the passes idea. i'm never keen on buying passes, but if it's something i love to do, i'll make the time to help the trail system out, over paying anyday.

or you can broaden it by all users, ie the guys parking for dirtbikes and such must have at least a hang tag on the parked vehicle, the dirtbike or atv shouldn't be required to carry one per vehicle. just each street legal vehicle must have one... ie the tow rig for the buggy, or the guy that drove needs to have one in the window. when they buy their permit, they could designate what they do, ie dirtbike, or 4wheel and funds could be appropriated from there to the needs of the parks.

i know it's not a 123 process for implimenting something like this or if it's even possible in washington.

here's some info on their passes for the imperial dunes
http://www.blm.gov/ca/st/en/fo/elcentro/recreation/ohvs/isdra/dunesinfo/permitinfo.html