Elbe Meeting outcome

CHOP SHOP · Jan 19, 2008

Gibby said:
BUT - hehe, I'm on a roll.. The forest watch program that we're working on with the DNR can have the authority to REVOKE those passes and require people to retake the education test or satisfy some other requirement before they can get their passes back... hmmm. Now we have an additional enforcement tool. The Forest watch people can't write tickets, but if they could revoke the pass because someone was caught winching without a tree saver of driving off the trail or breaking other specific rules, then we have an enforcement tool to assist the DNR and USFS.

PS. I'm running with the idea of making the education component available online... via a video presentation followed by a short quiz.

tattle tattle tattle tattle. Im gonna tell on you! 1-800-tattleonawheeler:booo:

dale do you remember the Elbe motto thread? :redneck:

I think it should be - Elbe, land of patrol nerds, enjoy:cheer:

TreeClimber · Jan 19, 2008

From Joop, regarding my trail run to Sadie Creek tomorrow

Notice the width warning and the length recomendation. Guess the Busy's not unique. Now after you notice the warning, then notice that the sign has no bullet holes, hasn't been torched, is still standing and, apparantly, people obey it. And it has phone numbers to call if you need to report something.

CHOP SHOP · Jan 19, 2008

TreeClimber said:
From Joop, regarding my trail run to Sadie Creek tomorrow

Notice the width warning and the length restriction. Guess the Busy's not unique. Now after you notice the warning, then notice that the sign has no bullet holes, hasn't been torched, is still standing and, apparantly, people obey it. And it has phone numbers to call if you need to report something.

notice the NEW TRAIL part, thats what I like.:awesomework:

I dont see any restrictions, only recomendations.:corn:

Comet · Jan 19, 2008

Binder said:
So do it again, don't be a puss.

LOL...I'm a puss

Not Jobless · Jan 19, 2008

Comet said:
that they need to sit behind a tree on a busy weekend at Elbe with a ticket book and go to town. Do that 3-4 times a year and not only have they added revenue

Revenue for who?

The money collected from the DNR writing tickets does not go back into the local ORV area that they were written.

Or have they somehow magically been able to change that?

Writing tickets does one thing in ORV areas...it forces education through the loss of $$$ from your pocket. Which is also a good thing.

Jaydog · Jan 20, 2008

CHOP SHOP said:
notice the NEW TRAIL part, thats what I like.:awesomework:

I dont see any restrictions, only recomendations.:corn:

Did you see the part that said "If Impact Cannot Be Managed, The Trail May Be Subject to CLOSURE. This whiney he tattled on me crap has got to end, I would much rather turn someone in for being an idiot, than let him ruin it for everyone else, it's called protecting the sport.

rooinater · Jan 20, 2008

Gibby said:
Do you have time to wheel? If so, then you need to make time to come to a work party. It's about priorities. I work an average of 100 hours per week and have a family with 3 kids and a wife that have sports, church, plus plus plus.

Don't talk to me about being too busy, you haven't even begun to get busy yet and I don't care how busy you think you are now. You don't want get in a p***ing match with me about who's the busiest. If you have time to wheel, you have time to go to a work party (which by the way usually involves wheeling).

That I will start a pissing match over. I rarely get the chance to wheel anymore because of my schedule. Over the last five years I've averaged 17 hours a day 6 to 7 days a week, not including any school I took on the side. Several times I went over a year without getting a day off or seeing any of my family. So if you think you've worked real hard, here's a pack and a rifle and go play in the big sand box for a year. Yes, I am finally down to part time work, full time college and have to maintain A's. It'd be real easy to get time off if i slacked off. If I would of done that while I was in the Marine Corp, I would not of made it to Sgt. in 4 years. I can't slack off and get into the field of study that I want to do. You are talking about limiting people to public land without letting them purchase the permit, which is an empty-headed delusion. Not all people can get those days off, and that point is not sinking in. Some of us can only wheel on weekdays on a rare occasion. Now how many of those working parties have you had on the weekday? I've never seen a work party posted and scheduled on a weekday. Especially a non holiday weekday, because some of us work those holidays also.

rollnhvy · Jan 20, 2008

Most of us have busy schedules in our lives. Some people make the time they need to maintain the trails. If nobody came to the work partys we would have no where to wheel. :beer:

pokey · Jan 20, 2008

rooinater said:
That I will start a pissing match over. I rarely get the chance to wheel anymore because of my schedule. Over the last five years I've averaged 17 hours a day 6 to 7 days a week, not including any school I took on the side. Several times I went over a year without getting a day off or seeing any of my family. So if you think you've worked real hard, here's a pack and a rifle and go play in the big sand box for a year. Yes, I am finally down to part time work, full time college and have to maintain A's. It'd be real easy to get time off if i slacked off. If I would of done that while I was in the Marine Corp, I would not of made it to Sgt. in 4 years. I can't slack off and get into the field of study that I want to do. You are talking about limiting people to public land without letting them purchase the permit, which is an empty-headed delusion. Not all people can get those days off, and that point is not sinking in. Some of us can only wheel on weekdays on a rare occasion. Now how many of those working parties have you had on the weekday? I've never seen a work party posted and scheduled on a weekday. Especially a non holiday weekday, because some of us work those holidays also.

Jared, first off thanks for your service I as I am sure everyone here appreciates it:awesomework: We do have work partys during the week on occasion usally a few retired guys and some of us that are self employed. If you would be interested in joining us sometime please pm me your contact info and I will get in touch with you next time we do. Thanks Jim Putman region 2 landmatters chair PNW4WDA

Digger 5 · Jan 20, 2008

To rooinator's point-
What about visitors? I had a group up 2 years ago that was from all over the west coast. If they had to run permits available by work party duty only, there would be no way they could have run the busy. I'm all for the permit idea but permits must be available to purchase too.

Dogfather · Jan 20, 2008

Digger 5 said:
To rooinator's point-
What about visitors? I had a group up 2 years ago that was from all over the west coast. If they had to run permits available by work party duty only, there would be no way they could have runs the busy. I'm all for the permit idea but permits must be available to purchase too.

you know I bet if that point was brought up in the Planning meeting about this new Venture. It would probably be addressed in such a manner as that as long as one person in a Group of visitors from other places that don't normally ever run Elbe then it would be acceptable that they don't have passes because they are here only once to try our trails. but the one person that had the pass would be held responsible for their actions.

Binder · Jan 20, 2008

WA has the option to honor other states permits or tabs in place of our own.

Rich1 · Jan 20, 2008

Gibby said:
Tony, it's READING into her statements that you need to stop. You are getting yourself into a huff when you don't need to.

I know some won't agree with this but I am pushing forward with a plan to implement a pass requirement, just haven't decided exactly how. There are two parts that I want to try to implement.
1) An annual or bi-annual requirement to attend a work party to get an annual or bi-annual trail pass.
2) A one time 4x4 education/safety class required by all users, like a boater safety class. It would be required to get your trail pass (and maybe ORV tags for specific vehicles). I'd like to see this implemented across all ORV users and maybe someone like WOHVA would be able to implement/manage something like this.

On both of these I'd propose a 2 year implementation plan. As people start going to work parties, they get their passes even though they are not required until say, Jan 1, 2010 and all initial passes are good until Dec 31, 2112. If a user cannot attend at least one work party in the next two years, it's my opinion that we don't want them on our trails.

The education classes would be offered at every "official" work party. I say official because I am wanting the PNW4WDA to manage the education class and with the limited volunteer hours they wouldn't be able to have people available everytime someone wanted to go out on a trash run. I'm working this over on the PNW4WDA site. I have a battle ahead of me there as well.

A user would have to attend one work party to satisfy BOTH components over the next two years.

Binder, those people that have taken the time to do the education class and get involved with the work parties are simply less likely to be idiots on the trails. They will have a better respect and understanding of what's expected of them and a better respect for the work that goes into the trails. So yes, I do feel that someone with a pass is less likely to go off the trails and yes, it is much more efficient to be able to check for passes - no pass = a ticket, than it is to enforce resource damage with limited staffing.

This would have to be supported with a good advertising campaign at the trailheads, 4x4 shops, websites maybe posters at the DMV and so on. I two years, everyone that wheels would know that the pass is required and how to get one. Only people from outside the state would be able to purchase a pass.

Do I think the DNR or the USFS would go for this, "I" hope so. I don't see why anyone would be against better education of the 4 wheeling community and improved volunteer support in maintaining our trail systems.

Big Picture ----- better maintained trails and improved volunteer support is a huge PR boost for the community as a whole. It would bode well towards long term development of new trails and trail systems as we would have a working successful model to implement and we can show how well our trail systems can be managed for both an environmental and user standpoint.

Did you suddenly become another Rich?

I know alot of people do not want any type of anything, other than a place to wheel / offroad at. Fine.... go to Reiter Trails then!

Elbe needs something in place and what better something than Actual user input and then following that. suggesting permits issued to people / users that actually attend work parties isn't a bad idea, but we do need to make paid permits available to everyone. where the trouble starts is from non-educated users of the trail.

if the rules / restrictions and suggested useage was made available or implimented thru classes / etc. it would cut down on trail damage / abuse.

-------------

Again, it all comes down to the actual users - in my opinion.

Gibby, you could be right and you could be wrong, sitting in your chair is not always the best place to be, but i will agree Elbe could be the corner stone that sets the stage for it all. one thing is for sure, it's not the 70's any longer and the facts are most of the offroaders out here, know that the BUSYWILD is for the hardcore, not a stock rig.

but evenstill, we need something in place to enforce and protect that trail.

Gibby1 · Jan 20, 2008

There are a few good points being made.

Rootinator, I too appreciate your service I want to make that clear first.

I'll get back to everything else later.

Gibby1 · Jan 21, 2008

Digger 5 said:
To rooinator's point-
What about visitors? I had a group up 2 years ago that was from all over the west coast. If they had to run permits available by work party duty only, there would be no way they could have run the busy. I'm all for the permit idea but permits must be available to purchase too.

I had suggested that out of state people could purchase permits, just like they can purchase passes for the forest service.

What we want to avoid is people opting out of a work party requirement because they're too lazy to go. Rootinator, these are simply hypothetical ideas to bounce around and get feedback, so your point is taken. But if we allow people to purchase passes a LOT of people will take that option rather than go to a work party and earn their pass.

Other options could be available as a lot have voiced concerns about handling 500 people at a work party. First, that would probably never happen, we're talking about one work party every 2 years. It could easily be expanded to include participation in a camp hosting program, such as the PNW4WDA has at Evan's Creek and has been discussed for Elbe. There are probably other ways that we can think of to earn vs purchase a trail pass. I don't think we'd have a problem getting enough work parties to make sure that everyone had an opportunity to participate.

I want to make this clear. I have no specific authority nor position to make this happen, at least no more than any individual. I am tossing around ideas based on commentary that was brought up at the meeting and things that have been discussed in the past, for the purpose of trying to get user input before presenting it formally (if at all) to the PNW4WDA and/or the DNR/USFS.

mud4funtoy · Jan 22, 2008

Gibby said:
Why would someone be ABLE to wheel, but not ABLE to come to a work party? Work party help can be looking at the camp, keeping track of who's doing what. It doesn't have to me slinging mud or hauling rocks.

If you can make the time to build and wheel a rig, you can make the time to come to a work party. I'm suggesting only 1 per year, that shouldn't be hard.

This is about a few issues.
1) Ownership of the trails. People who WORK on the trails take ownership of the trail and are more likely to respect them and don't want to see their work trashed.
2) Education of users so that everyone has a baseline understanding.
3) We need people to help out and show the USFS and DNR that the volunteer base IS there.
4) We raise funds and political power with our volunteer support. These hours are tracked and reported. This also has an effect on how the funds are divided up when it comes to grants...

We live in an entitlement culture now and the younger crowd won't help out for the sake of helping out (remember, we're generalizing here) as was true of the culture 20-30 years ago. So, we have to consider alternative methods.

I love yours guys idea. I disagree with the idea people don't want to help out. Most people don't even know how to get involved. We need to advertise work parties better. Maybe put up a sign at the park with info for that or in the tree cooler. that is what the sign by the fence in the tree cooler was meant for. we put it there so it wouldn't get vandalized. people can read it if the info is big enough. Also advertise with fliers at events and in shops. PEOPLE want to help. Just get the word out so they know about it.

mud4funtoy · Jan 22, 2008

TreeClimber said:
I'll have you know I've NOT talked with Steve on the phone, nor has he filled my head' with inaccuracies. I'm quite candidly against a length restriction. Period. Now does that mean my voice will be agreed with? I doubt it. But I at least want my voice heard. And you can read into her statement what you will, while I read into it something different. It is not personal attack on you or anyone else that our comprehension of her intent is different.

That's my contention also. Punish 'resourse damage'. However it has become evident that the phrase 'resourse damage' is too vague and in order for her to ticket (punish) is based upon a readily quantifiable variable. I.E. Wheelbase. Since she's basically a 'one-woman' show, she needs to be easily able to verify who is or isn't in compliance. It would be different if there was funding for more compliance officers, but the reality is she's the only one who has the ability and the responsibilitiy for the Busy.

I'd gladly trade "Passes" for "wheelbase" restrictions. Do you really think that the DNR will consider this?

I'd also like to remind everyone that Region 2 of the pacific Northwest Four Wheel Drive Association Which I am also a member of Voted against supporting any Length Restriction. I am also a member of the White Knuckles and the Mudslingers and they both are members of the PNW. I am not for the restriction, I am for doing what i can to help the park and Dnr with it problems.
Dale I am offended by your suggestion that I give inaccurate information. I try my best to give factual information and find my self correcting information provided by people that have no clue about that trail system or its history.

mud4funtoy · Jan 22, 2008

I apologize to everyone I have not had time to hang out on the boards lately.
All of you are making some great suggestions and it is Obvious that all of us care about what happens at Elbe hills.

I suggest that instead of pushing for 500 hundred people to the next DNR meeting, That we have one our selves. At the same location. We could have it some time in Feb. we could push for people to come out and take part. We could collect every ones ideas and get organized for the next meeting. The cool thing is everyone will have the opportunity to participate and will be a part of the future at Elbe. The large group could either choose to take part in the DNR meeting or they could pick 30 - 40 people to take part in the Next DNR meeting. Then we could Advertise this at the moonshiners swap meet and get more public input and make more people feel included and get more people involved with the trails.

Regardless there are a lot of people that plan on being at the next DNR meeting.
We should use this large amount of interest to help the park and our sport.

mud4funtoy · Jan 22, 2008

Elbe Hills Orv Park Update

I want to thank everyone for coming to the last focus meeting.
A lot of good has come from it and a lot has happened since the meeting.
One thing I have found out is that NANCY BARKER is not our enemy.
She is actually committed to bringing the park to a level that will provide the best possible experience to everyone.
Dnr has stated that they want to encourage people to be involved in meetings and work parties.

Since the meeting there has been some really good ideas and suggestions that could bring solutions to the problems with The Busy Wild trail.
I have had a lot of communication with upper level Management of DNR and have been educated as to how things work.
I recognize that DNR has a difficult road ahead trying to figure out how to provide a safe and pleasant and challenging experience for all of us and also deal with the environmental and resource impacts of our sport.

I now believe that Nancy Barker is doing her very best for all of us.

The last couple of months I did my very best to get a lot of people to show up and fight DNR to stop the Wheel base restriction.
Dnr saw that a lot of you also cared about the busy wild.

After speaking to DNR a lot and learning how things work I suggest we try to work with DNR and Try to build a working Relationship with them. I don

TreeClimber · Mar 2, 2008

The next meeting regarding Elbe's future will be this upcoming Thursday, March 13th.

Those in Nancy's E-mail list should expect an email tomorrow or the next day.

T