A little Boeing debate

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It's difficult for me. It makes me pay more for benefits. But it's still less then any place else I could hopefully get a job at. Which I would probably have to go find if we turn this down. The pension isn't really a huge issue for me. It makes me plan for my retirement. Which I am fine with and already have been. This deal will probably be worse come next contract, we will strike for a long time and doubtfully get anywhere, losing even more. I hate the spot that they put us in. But I don't think I have much choice in my position. I'm not going to ***** about people above me making tons of money. Anyone has the opportunity to go after that if you want to. In 2024 my union steward said he would still be paying 200 less a month for insurance then he was before he got the job at Boeing. I asked for everyone inside and outside of Boeing to chime in for a reason. It should hopefully make people realize how good we still have it even with compromises like these for the company to stay strong.

BTW, I was raised in a Boeing family. My Mom started in 65. My uncle in the mid 50's and a number of others followed.

Flame away
 
I got a text this morning asking if I had read the contract. It was a friend of mine that is a union steward. I am not a big union person. He and I butt heads all the time. But he's in the position for the right reasons. He wasn't too happy about it yesterday, but today he agrees with me. Which I was not expecting at all.
 
1982cj7 said:
The main problem is US companies are competing with overseas companies that do not have these benefits. Before the bankruptcy GM had 17k in benefit liabilities per car, Toyota, Nissan and other overseas companies do not have that. So really it is our fault because we want cheaper products but we also want our retirement and free healthcare. You cannot have it both ways.
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Its easy place the blame on shipping jobs overseas, but many of these companies are also shipping jobs to other parts of the country, such as the south. They can get skilled laborers for less cost in some of these places that have a significantly lower cost of living and also have an excess of laborers on the job market because of the lack of other large industrial employers. They can then cut costs but also still keep saying their products are American made and keep the 'quality' that comes from this American made manufacturing.

You can see this with Toyota and Nissan. They constructed their domestic manufacturing plants in less industrialized areas where they are the primary employer in the area. Didn't Boeing do something similar with moving some of their manufacturing to South Carolina?
 
As far as capital improvements go, I would support them. Why? Because you need this infrastructure to support local industry.

It's easy to say, "**** that, let them pay for it themselves." The thing is, they won't, they will say **** you and go else ware that will give them these capital improvements.

Part of what made America such a great power in the world market is infrastructure that the government helped fund; the freeways, harbors, and such. Without these, America would simply be a second world country. You can see this in post cold-war Russia. There were no large capital improvements, thus their industry did not grow. (Of course, there were other issues also.)

That being said, don't give them everything they want for free. Make them match it.
 
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Our local and state governments also used to absolutely RAPE Boeing with permitting fees, environmental impact mitigation fees, transportation fees, etc every time they wanted to expand. Both the union and local/state have put themselves in this position by assuming that Boeing being here was some kind of birthright that could never be taken away.
 
Im with you too Jeff, we are kinda stuck... there will be pain on both ends of this deal, employees will pay and the state will pay either way. My dad is going on 27 years here, im going on 7, I was born into this life... it hurts seeing this. 10 years is not a future tho, whats next? Boeing has been fed up with Wa state for over 10 years already. So in 10 years when we are making 4% more then what we are making now, and everything else is 400% more expencive and Boeing is just fat and happy with cash cause they suckered everyone into this "major cost savings" then what?

What state is the backup state if the vote is NO? I would like to know who we are competing with?
 
Lucky Jeff said:
It's difficult for me. It makes me pay more for benefits. But it's still less then any place else I could hopefully get a job at. Which I would probably have to go find if we turn this down. The pension isn't really a huge issue for me. It makes me plan for my retirement. Which I am fine with and already have been. This deal will probably be worse come next contract, we will strike for a long time and doubtfully get anywhere, losing even more. I hate the spot that they put us in. But I don't think I have much choice in my position. I'm not going to ***** about people above me making tons of money. Anyone has the opportunity to go after that if you want to. In 2024 my union steward said he would still be paying 200 less a month for insurance then he was before he got the job at Boeing. I asked for everyone inside and outside of Boeing to chime in for a reason. It should hopefully make people realize how good we still have it even with compromises like these for the company to stay strong.

BTW, I was raised in a Boeing family. My Mom started in 65. My uncle in the mid 50's and a number of others followed.

Flame away
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This is not about a strike. We have a contract till 2016.
It pisses me off that the new people all they see is the $ signs. The people that have been there for along time have went out on strike to make sure the new people coming in have gotton the same things we've had. And now its there turn to do for the old timers and it not going to happen IMO because all they see is that $10,000 bonus
 
Mark m. said:
This is not about a strike. We have a contract till 2016.
It pisses me off that the new people all they see is the $ signs. The people that have been there for along time have went out on strike to make sure the new people coming in have gotton the same things we've had. And now its there turn to do for the old timers and it not going to happen IMO because all they see is that $10,000 bonus
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Just had a meeting with a business rep and listening to all the guys close to retirement commenting, they may vote yes. Deciding factor will be all the young grade 3's and 4's in Everett.
 
Mark m. said:
This is not about a strike. We have a contract till 2016.
It pisses me off that the new people all they see is the $ signs. The people that have been there for along time have went out on strike to make sure the new people coming in have gotton the same things we've had. And now its there turn to do for the old timers and it not going to happen IMO because all they see is that $10,000 bonus
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I don't think it's about the 10k for anyone this time. At least not from what I have seen. I was talking about the strike in 2016, not one immediately. And if we lose this, chances are there will be no new hires. So who would we be fighting for?
 
I have been following the convos from a couple friends that work there because I am interested to see where it leads to. I have applied there a few times just to see if anything comes of it and I am getting tired of the timber industry at times.

I compare what is happening here to the Longshore strike at the Port of Longview recently. You both have excellent wages,benefits and a sense of entitlement because you work there. It is like it comes with the mentality that you are above the "Common worker".
On one hand I can agree with you guys as when you were hired on these places it was like winning the "Job Lottery" in a sense with stability,great wages,benefits and clout.
The truth of the matter is that in any industry or employment sector that eventually runs out just like the timber industry did in the 80's, the costs to do business and produce your products exceeds the value of them.
That is why Weyerhaeuser has downsized drastically. It no longer has company cutters on any tree farm,the yarding crews have been scaled back or eliminated all together along with their trucking. They rely on contractors to perform this work as they get it done cheaper and without the union.

It's a tough call as I can see both sides but I forsee both sides having to give with the employees giving most.
 
Mark m. said:
I'm not surprised at all. I've seen this coming for the last few years.


And this is why its hard to give up. People have fought for years to get these benefits.
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I dont work there, but I do understand where you are coming from in this statement. I the past you guys have given up hourly pay raises to keep your benefits, But all people are seeing now are the good thing that you have given up money in the past to keep. They dont understand that that was money given up to reap the beniefits you now have.
 
I say vote yes so the state will ram the gas tax through our collective starfish (no time for lube:5bitch:) and keep me employed fixing our failing infrastructure for the next 20 years! :corn::cheer:
 
boardbysled said:
Its easy place the blame on shipping jobs overseas, but many of these companies are also shipping jobs to other parts of the country, such as the south. They can get skilled laborers for less cost in some of these places that have a significantly lower cost of living and also have an excess of laborers on the job market because of the lack of other large industrial employers. They can then cut costs but also still keep saying their products are American made and keep the 'quality' that comes from this American made manufacturing.

You can see this with Toyota and Nissan. They constructed their domestic manufacturing plants in less industrialized areas where they are the primary employer in the area. Didn't Boeing do something similar with moving some of their manufacturing to South Carolina?
Click to expand...

While it is true the wages are a little lower in some of the rural areas that these companies go to, it is not hugely lower, what is starting at Boeing? 18.00/hr? That is about what they start at in SC. But no union so cheaper benefits/retirement than here. I used to work for Kmart, they put out a statement each year that showed how much your benefits cost, in the early 80's mine were 7k per year and health was much cheaper back then.
 
1982cj7 said:
While it is true the wages are a little lower in some of the rural areas that these companies go to, it is not hugely lower, what is starting at Boeing? 18.00/hr? That is about what they start at in SC. But no union so cheaper benefits/retirement than here. I used to work for Kmart, they put out a statement each year that showed how much your benefits cost, in the early 80's mine were 7k per year and health was much cheaper back then.
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Grade 4 is most common. Starts at 15
 
The healthcare part is certainly a problem, as others have mentioned here -- companies in other countries don't have to pay for healthcare, because they are already through corporate taxes and other methods. They have single payer or other government healthcare, which is cheaper for everyone including companies. I know, socialism sucks, blah blah blah, but really -- its more efficient, and its costing us jobs here because it costs too much to give healthcare under our current system (and I don't see Obamacare really changing that)

2ndly, where is the supply/demand for workers at Boeing? In the tech industry we cannot find enough skilled workers. We get benefits, without a union, because they -want- us to work for them, and those benefits persist because if they didn't have them, people would go work elsewhere. Even with our benefits, people jump from place to place, moving up the income and benefit chain.

The $10,000 as a bonus is an ass-rape for employees. I imagine for most thats probably not even half a year's worth in benefits. Its too bad there isn't competition to get workers, which seems to be the crux of the problem.
 
I agree Mike.
I have 20 years as a timber faller. The most dangerous job there is to do and as an employee I make less than these guys and zero benefits. It is hard to side with guys that don't know/realize how good they have it compared to guys that work longer and harder to make less daily in another trade. That is why I compared it to the Longshore strike last year in Longview.

Don't get me wrong, I have applied to Boeing and would accept a job there but I also know that anything can end at anytime and am thankful for the good run I have had, not complaining about what I don't have or what I "Had". If we don't adapt to change then we get left behind as others that do move forward.

crash said:
Whats sad is the fact I work in a highly skilled area and I could start at Grade 4 and still be at the same level of take home..

Thats where I have a problem with what guys are complaining about.
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I agree with lucky Jeff, and Darren, I started my work life in a non union gig, if I wanted to put just my wife on the medical not including kids it would have cost me four hundred a month just for the wife and it was ****ty medical, I have read the contract and its really not as bad as all the naysayers make it out to be, change is inevitable, but I would rather attempt to keep work in the NW versus trying to force my viewpoint on a corporate bean counter who looks at how to keep a business afloat so that it can pay all the current pensions rather than go bankrupt trying to compete, pay its workers, pay its retirees who are living longer than they used to when pensions started, and another thing to think about, can you will a pension to your kids? I know that you can will a 401K...
 
spidertoy said:
I agree with lucky Jeff, and Darren, I started my work life in a non union gig, if I wanted to put just my wife on the medical not including kids it would have cost me four hundred a month just for the wife and it was ****ty medical, I have read the contract and its really not as bad as all the naysayers make it out to be, change is inevitable, but I would rather attempt to keep work in the NW versus trying to force my viewpoint on a corporate bean counter who looks at how to keep a business afloat so that it can pay all the current pensions rather than go bankrupt trying to compete, pay its workers, pay its retirees who are living longer than they used to when pensions started, and another thing to think about, can you will a pension to your kids? I know that you can will a 401K...
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My girlfriends dad was a boeing employee for years. When he passed she started receiving his pension money.
 
Figure benefits at an average of ~$10/hr or possibly more...****'s expensive these days. I am relatively new to unions, and can see both sides of the argument...I also spent most of my career non-union, and I will say that even with the recent changes to our contract regarding medical (which are not changing in the near future), the little bit we have to pay pails in comparison to what private market employers/employees have to pay, and its WAY better coverage. I paid WAAAAYYY more than I do now for JUST medical coverage, which sucked ass. Union Reps/Stewards have a large fight for labor, much larger than the stuff we as union members see on a day-to-day, although ours seems to keep us in the loop as much as they can, but we are much smaller than the Big B...
As for the $10K bonus issue, I don't know the Big B's contract so I will stay out of that one...
 
crash said:
Whats sad is the fact I work in a highly skilled area and I could start at Grade 4 and still be at the same level of take home..

Thats where I have a problem with what guys are complaining about.
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This kind of thinking is what I don't understand. People are paid to much and have no skill. A long time ago before I worked there I felt the same way but then I decided hell why not go where the money is? So people that think this way why wouldn't you go there if you can make a way better living than at your SKILLED Job ?
Mike this isn't anything directed at you I'm just using your quote because i'm tired of hearing this **** from people that don't work there and have NO idea what goes on there.
The bottom line is the younger generation is willing to give up everything people have fought for over the years for a $10,000 bonus:looser:
 
Mark m. said:
This kind of thinking is what I don't understand. People are paid to much and have no skill. A long time ago before I worked there I felt the same way but then I decided hell why not go where the money is? So people that think this way why wouldn't you go there if you can make a way better living than at your SKILLED Job ?
Mike this isn't anything directed at you I'm just using your quote because i'm tired of hearing this **** from people that don't work there and have NO idea what goes on there.
The bottom line is the younger generation is willing to give up everything people have fought for over the years for a $10,000 bonus:looser:
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I have a question for you mark since I truely don't know 100% of what folks do and such.

Now as a installer/assembler don't most folks have a certain set of rules/guidelines to follow in a procedure where there is no grey area? You must follow the letter of the law to complete the task at hand?
 
crash said:
I have a question for you mark since I truely don't know 100% of what folks do and such.

Now as a installer/assembler don't most folks have a certain set of rules/guidelines to follow in a procedure where there is no grey area? You must follow the letter of the law to complete the task at hand?
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Yes. What are you trying to get at?
 
Anyone that is going to vote yes for this because they think its going to save there job better read the fine print.
The 777X wing fabrication and assembly work will be performed in the puget sound. The parties agree that the company may subcontract or outsource fabrication and assembly work packages in WHOLE or PART. This goes for the rest of the plane also. With this and all the automation thats going to happen lots of people will be losing there jobs IMO.
Does that make you feel more secure about your job?
 
Mark m. said:
Anyone that is going to vote yes for this because they think its going to save there job better read the fine print.
The 777X wing fabrication and assembly work will be performed in the puget sound. The parties agree that the company may subcontract or outsource fabrication and assembly work packages in WHOLE or PART. This goes for the rest of the plane also. With this and all the automation thats going to happen lots of people will be losing there jobs IMO.
Does that make you feel more secure about your job?
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That is like saying that the current 777 final assembly work isn't secure since so much of the airplane is already sourced from other locations and companies. Heck, the same goes for the 737, 747, 767 and 787, too. Might as well just flush all 85,000 good Boeing jobs in Washington down the toilet since since there is no security in them.

I don't think Boeing is bluffing on this one. They won't move out of town overnight, but over the course of 10-20 years. I guess if you'll be retired by then, great. F everyone else.
 

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