Coilover Tech

lowbudgetjunk · Sep 28, 2015

I searched and the best thread I found pertaining to the subject linked back to Pirate. I had a lot of success with my PogoSticks (air shocks) from the previous thread, that I thought some Coilover help will soon be warranted. I have truly seen some awful jobs on set up with spring rates and valving and if I am not careful, I will be the worst.

I will post up my buggy specs/coil overs once they all find their way to the same state. In the meantime, feel free to ask questions, add remarks and help idiots like myself keep all four tires on the ground in the best way possible. Though I don't mind links to other sites, it is easier for me to understand common man terms and ideas from real world experience. BillaVista can sometimes make my head hurt.

karatejosh · Sep 28, 2015

Re:

Just did a shock tuning session with Wayne from alltec and all I have to say is just pay the man my springs where right and the before and after is 100% better

jeeptj99 · Sep 28, 2015

Re:

karatejosh said:
Just did a shock tuning session with Wayne from alltec and all I have to say is just pay the man my springs where right and the before and after is 100% better

what did he do adjust the pressure or what? I've never had a set of co and i've tried reading as much as i can but at the end of the day my head hurts and i'm confused.

This might be a dumb question but what goes into a shock tuning session?

TBItoy · Sep 28, 2015

Re:

jeeptj99 said:
what did he do adjust the pressure or what? I've never had a set of co and i've tried reading as much as i can but at the end of the day my head hurts and i'm confused.

This might be a dumb question but what goes into a shock tuning session?

Shim packs control the compression and rebound damping.

a shock tuner will watch your vehicle and make changes to the shim packs to make the vehicle perform better. Like if the rig is bucking, bouncing, packing, etc,. They tune that out with spring changes and shim pack adjustment.

FlatlandFSJ · Sep 28, 2015

Re:

jeeptj99 said:
what did he do adjust the pressure or what? I've never had a set of co and i've tried reading as much as i can but at the end of the day my head hurts and i'm confused.

This might be a dumb question but what goes into a shock tuning session?

Tuning sessions usually consists of slow/med/fast/WFO passes through a set course, whoops/small jumps/ whatever is relevant to the style of wheeling/racing. You can pull videos from youtube of some sessions from the hammers/sturgis stuff.

wizzo · Sep 28, 2015

I've tuned with wayne as well. Money well spent.

As with any other performance idea, there is more than one to do things. I choose to believe in Wayne's theory. Essentially, you use the lightest springs necessary to support the weight of your rig and then use valving to control the way your shocks react. Wayne asks what your goal is with your rig and tunes accordingly. After a day with wayne we had reached the limits of my 2" coil overs. He showed me some things as far as assembly of the coil overs to keep things consistent. He didn't go into a ton of detail as far as his valving, obviously this is where he makes money, but I was able to pick up some things along the way.

To the OP: lots of good spring and valving talk here: http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/general-4x4-discussion/1074029-spring-tech-thread.html Sorry for the link but it is what it is.

mac5005 · Sep 28, 2015

wizzo said:
I've tuned with wayne as well. Money well spent.

As with any other performance idea, there is more than one to do things. I choose to believe in Wayne's theory. Essentially, you use the lightest springs necessary to support the weight of your rig and then use valving to control the way your shocks react. Wayne asks what your goal is with your rig and tunes accordingly. After a day with wayne we had reached the limits of my 2" coil overs. He showed me some things as far as assembly of the coil overs to keep things consistent. He didn't go into a ton of detail as far as his valving, obviously this is where he makes money, but I was able to pick up some things along the way.

To the OP: lots of good spring and valving talk here: http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/general-4x4-discussion/1074029-spring-tech-thread.html Sorry for the link but it is what it is.

This. After spending the day with Wayne, pay the man. His knowledge and experience is overwhelming.

Worth every penny to have the right knowledge.

I've researched a bunch and I understand a lot, but as soon as my rig is ready, I'll pay Wayne and have him tune it up. Makes worlds of difference.

Here is how the day went with karatejosh.

We used two engine hoists to lift the entire buggy and pull the shocks as fast as possible. The quicker you can dismount, get them to Wayne to tune them, and get them remounted, the more times he can revalve them , or change oil and nitro pressures to get them better.

Our responsibility was getting the shocks on and off the buggy. He did the rest.

I didn't count but just guessing 8-12 times over the day. The last three times were rears only in about an hour time span.

The faster you can get the shocks on and off, the more you can get out of your day.

lowbudgetjunk · Sep 28, 2015

How does setting up a session with Wayne go? Catch him when he's on the right coast? Set a date and fly him in? Real world, how much for a day of tuning? If your springs are wrong, do you need to provide more spring options?

wizzo · Sep 28, 2015

lowbudgetjunk said:
How does setting up a session with Wayne go? Catch him when he's on the right coast? Set a date and fly him in? Real world, how much for a day of tuning? If your springs are wrong, do you need to provide more spring options?

He typical tunes before ultra4 events and typically posts up on Pirate in the events forum. Or contact him and ask. Work with him ahead of time to get your springs "right". Honestly, I can't remember what the cost was, I'm thinking $250-$300.

Take a buddy or two with you to help and all the tools you will need. As stated, you will get more done the faster you work. At the tuning session I was at, others weren't as on the ball as we (myself and two buddies) were and wayne commented at the end of the day about how much more we got done because of that.

mac5005 · Sep 28, 2015

wizzo · Sep 29, 2015

mac5005 said:
$400

Was it a "group" session?

Neal3000 · Sep 29, 2015

Thats my advice, contact Wayne via pirate and let him get you setup on springs (free exchange). You can also send him vids of your rig and he will send you shim packs in the mail, they are really easy to swap out, probably 15 minutes per shock.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/general-4x4-discussion/1074029-spring-tech-thread.html

ZukIzzy;14518668 said:
I use 100 different combinations of springs to get what I want out of a car. most would have a spring rate of about the same in general terms. I am not going to put a number I get quoted on later, been stung by that one before.

I will give these rules of thumb again. NONE of this is set in stone we will fudge it all from time to time but it is a good start.

lower spring 2" longer then shocl travel.
upper spring same as shock travel
try to keep the upper and lower springs within 100# of each other

2" to 3" of preload in the front.
2" of preload in the rear

your springs are too light if you have to use more preload to get ride height. and too heavy if you use less.

Few U4 cars use heavier then 250#lower for a reference.

wayne

lowbudgetjunk · Sep 29, 2015

Wizzo and Neal, that's what I was looking for. The start seems so much harder than it should be.

And this sounds bad, but I am a f#cking space cadet for the most part. I can read and reread some of these tech articles and my brain makes my eyes look at every shiny object in the room. If I read something straight and to the point, I can process all of it and usually make it happen. Thanks for pointing me to the starting line.

poolman · Sep 29, 2015

So if you can get a few friends available and meet up with him ( who knows where) he'll tune your coil overs for around $400 and trade out springs?

What's an average cost at EOR?

wizzo · Sep 29, 2015

poolman said:
So if you can get a few friends available and meet up with him ( who knows where) he'll tune your coil overs for around $400 and trade out springs?

What's an average cost at EOR?

Typically it is best to get your springs dialed ahead of time. Wayne flies in from the West coast and usually flies in. He brings shims, small specific tools, etc. Unless PAC shows up, he prob wont have springs.

Neal3000 · Sep 29, 2015

Usually About the closest he gets to us is ultra4 events, hot springs, badlands, or Bill Bairds place in KY

mac5005 · Sep 29, 2015

wizzo said:
Typically it is best to get your springs dialed ahead of time. Wayne flies in from the West coast and usually flies in. He brings shims, small specific tools, etc. Unless PAC shows up, he prob wont have springs.

This.

Wayne created the spring thread as a response to people always needing to swap springs at the start of a tune session or not being able to fully tune the shocks due to wrong springs.

Do the math and get your springs right first in order to maximize your time spent tuning the shocks.

His website says $375 as part of a group session, I was just there to help @karatejosh last weekend, he will have to confirm the $400 amount.

I'm sure getting Wayne lined up for another east coast session is just a matter of finding the right place to tune, and a time that fits his schedule. Also need a table, a couple vises, n20 fill kit, shock oil, and some other tools and supplies that Wayne will cover.

Need a place with some good whoops, a couple bigger jumps and some good washboard or small chop.

He are the formulas for getting the right springs.

Initial spring rate=(Main spring rate * Tender spring rate)/(Main spring rate +Tender spring rate)

Shaft showing= Shock Travel – ((Corner weight/Initial spring rate)-Pre-load distance)

So for your front spring example Initial spring rate=(250 * 150)/(250 +150)= 93.75

Shaft showing= 16–((1050/93.75)-3)

Shaft showing=16-(11.2-3)

Shaft showing=16-8.2=7.8"

Use your current springs rate, shaft showing at ride height, and current preload to find your actual sprung weight at the shock.

Then just change the preload amount to the desired 2-3" and solve for new spring rate.

Then find the correct length upper and Lower spring that has the combined initial rate you found above.

Neal3000 · Sep 30, 2015

A tuning session for a trailrig seems kind of ridiculous and a waste of money. Wayne can get you right where you need to be with mail order tuning

jeeptj99 · Sep 30, 2015

So what would you guys recommend for a trail rig? As far as a tuning session? Would it be worth trying to ordinate with Wayne or just take it to EOR/WOD?

Neal3000 · Sep 30, 2015

What i did was pm Wayne on pirate, you tell him what you have, specs, weight, what you want to do with it and he will get you right on springs and send you shim packs that will make you happy.