You've got me wondering about that now too. We need someone to go up there and take a pic...:eeek:
Elbe Busywild update
- Thread starter Gibby1
- Start date
Not so. They have few specific trail enforcing rules. ie. you can't give a person a ticket for speeding if you don't tell them what the speed limit is. You also can't give someone a ticket for driving on a bypass if they don't know that it's not an illegal bypass. You can't ticket someone for not staying in the trail corridor if the corridor is not marked.
With the DNR they have a rule that says basically, that you have to follow the rules... and you can be fined for NOT following the rules.
I challenge you to FIND the DNR rules as they apply to ORV use, other than requiring a legal vehicle (licensed). They are in the process of rewriting all of this because the last set of rules was written 30 years ago. Doug Southerland showed us some samples about a year ago, in draft form. Literally, the DNR rules say that you have to follow the posted rules... obviously I'm paraphrasing.
The LEOs can do nothing about someone not using a tree saver when winching, or driving a truck off the trail.
megatoy66
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Mar 29, 2006
- Messages
- 3,380
What is happening to our state? why do we have these rules? times change, tires get bigger, everything is different.
I am glad I don't wheel in this state anymore and don't have deal with with this bull****.
Gibby.... you are probably a great guy and mean well but......................
I am glad I don't wheel in this state anymore and don't have deal with with this bull****.
Gibby.... you are probably a great guy and mean well but......................
I am just guessing but I bet it says " All ORVs must be street legal and licensed to operate on forest service roads" At least thats what they said when I made them for the FS about 10 years ago.
Hes not the one making the rules its those lovely folks down in oly.and back in DC. that make the rules. We just try to figure out how to get the best we can from them. Now if we had say 25,000 members in the PNW4WDA then perhaps we could do more about getting these rules changed but since the majority of wheelers cant see past their wallets well here we are:eeek:
$35.00 is a awful lot of money to support the only Org of its kind in our area
We have rules to deal with stupidity, people who can't use common sense and common courtesy.
If everyone used common sense, acted with common courtesy and respect we would have no NEED for the rules. However, that's not the case. We have people who take chainsaws to the picnic shelter just to see if they can make it fall down, we have people who burn the wood from the picnic tables for the campfires with their out in the woods with hundreds of acres of wood scraps just lying around. We have people who take a pick axe to the door of the brand new bathroom, we have people who burn the sign at the campground and stand around and laugh while it burns. We have people who feel the need to take shotguns to the signs and intentionally drive off the trails and unblock illegal bypasses. We have people who carelessly wrap winch cables around trees or make new trails through through the brush just for fun
That's why we need rules...
And you know what makes me mad about the intentional stupidity is that those people ARE NOT ALONE! Their out there with their buddies and NO ONE says STOP!
You don't get some guy off the highway, drivng up to Elbe to take a chainsaw to the shelter when no one's around and then running away under the cover of darkness. You have some group of punks that think vandalism is funny and their's not one guy or girl in the group that has the balls to make someone stop. To make things worse, they're PROBABLY wheelers!
Last summer I had to tell a group of people behind us at the busy twice, to use tree saves. There were about 10 people in the group, they were up in the trees with rigs trying to get around the guys that were stuck in their own group. They were using unsafe winching techniques and everyone of them was hanging on to at LEAST one beer.
THEY are why we need rules and also why we need more enforcement, but that part is still awaiting a budget from Olympia.
You don't get some guy off the highway, drivng up to Elbe to take a chainsaw to the shelter when no one's around and then running away under the cover of darkness. You have some group of punks that think vandalism is funny and their's not one guy or girl in the group that has the balls to make someone stop. To make things worse, they're PROBABLY wheelers!
Last summer I had to tell a group of people behind us at the busy twice, to use tree saves. There were about 10 people in the group, they were up in the trees with rigs trying to get around the guys that were stuck in their own group. They were using unsafe winching techniques and everyone of them was hanging on to at LEAST one beer.
THEY are why we need rules and also why we need more enforcement, but that part is still awaiting a budget from Olympia.
Hes not the one making the rules its those lovely folks down in oly.and back in DC. that make the rules. We just try to figure out how to get the best we can from them. Now if we had say 25,000 members in the PNW4WDA then perhaps we could do more about getting these rules changed but since the majority of wheelers cant see past their wallets well here we are:eeek:
$35.00 is a awful lot of money to support the only Org of its kind in our area
Pokey, to tell you the truth I'd rather have 35 people show up at a focus group meeting and 135 people show up at work parties then get their idle $35. While I know that there's strength in membership numbers when negotiating I think there's more influence with good active people than just people sending in their money for the PNW4WDA, WHOVA or any other org. But you get good turnouts of people interested in making things work and good turnouts at work parties, that's how we make change.
Maybe that's more at a local level, ORV park by ORV park. This is something that Steve did very well when he was the Elbe rep. He got a LOT of people out and a lot of volunteer hours out there at Elbe, we've not been so fortunate for the last year or two. It's been a very small group doing almost all the work out there.
Its not really about the money but the numbers are everything when talking politics. even your numbers would be higher as its all a game of percentegas. The more people involved the more will get involved. When our numbers were in the thousands years ago we had huge turnouts for any and all work partys Now as our numbers are down so is the turnout:booo:
mud4funtoy
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- May 2, 2006
- Messages
- 356
The busy wild became a one way trail after the origional lower section of the busy wild was logged of and shut off. The upper section of trail that is now called the the upper entrance where the slippery hill is was built 3 years ago by the Hombres and the Timber Tamers . The one way travel came into effect shortly after Nancy took over and she saw the impact that the uphill was having. We origionaly had a trail that went up hill that had 29 water bars, and about $10,000.00 worth of rock laid on it by volenteers that spent 100's of hours doing it. they turned it into a logging road.
When you get to the bottom of the hill where all the fun stuff is that is where the origional trail begins that used to be the 1/2 way mark. I know alot about Elbe, they have took alot and done alot and if we don't stop this it will only get worse.
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mud4funtoy
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- May 2, 2006
- Messages
- 356
Because of many phone calls from 4 wheelers all over the state, I logged on to take a look for my self.
The PNW replaced me because I fought things like this. I fought everything some say I fought to much. I don't care I'm not bitter over it anymore. This is a ridiculous rule. The Busy wild has been there more than 30 years. How is vehicle length going to change what has already happened to those trees.
I have stayed quiet now for a long while. Your war should not be with him or the PNW. You are lucky they are willing to share this info with non supportive members. I feel that Gibby is trying his best, DNR is ruthless and will not be happy until we have no place to play. You watch what she has planned for that rock she flew in by helicopter. Its not to fill the holes, She will use it to build hard pan go a round's for the bad areas. What do you think will happen to all the fun places on the busy once all those go a rounds are established ? She will slowly close it off piece by piece leaving hard pan to wheel on. Why does she care about width and length ? She's thinking ahead of you. She's thinking of the new trees the ones next to the hard pan trail. Her agenda has always been the same. I have only met 1 DNR person that was Honest and truthful all the rest are blowing smoke up our asses.
Now for all of you who ***** and moan and write mile long rebuttals to people that have no power to do anything about what your *****ing about !
Nancy needs her job we all need our jobs. The only way you are going to get rid of this rule is to make her life uncomfortable. The only voice you have is the is the pnw's and there volunteers. They give there lives to there sport. With out them there would be no Elbe. But that does not make them the only voice.
YOU HAVE A VOICE, That park belongs to everyone. Maybe DNR is not aware that their a lot of users that will be excluded or maybe they know but don't care because you have never done anything about what you dis agree about and feel it is OK to exclude you
IF YOU REALLY WANT THIS RULE TO GO AWAY THEN MAKE ALOT OF NOISE !
GET ALL YOUR FAMILY, YOUR FRIENDS, YOUR NIEGHORS INVLOVED, DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT, TAKE SOME INTITIVE FIGHT FOR YOUR RIGHTS.
Starting from the top and working your way down EMAIL and CALL these people.
Let them know what you think. Let them know that you are being discriminated against, that you have used that trail for years and now are being told that you cant go there any more. MAKE ENOUGH NOISE WITH HER BOSSES AND SHE WILL HEAR YOUR VOICE.
I fought with DNR for 8 years, I know this will work because it has before.
Don't be rude or disrespectful that will get you no where. If all of you don't come together and fight for your rights then you will have none and no right to *****. You should email this message to everyone you know, if we get 100 - 500 people to call and email that will be enough. Every person that gets involved in this needs to take the time to contact everyone of these people below. Not one ALL.
I am sorry to all my friends out there that may be upset with me over this, I spent a good amount of my life, building, fixing and fighting for that park and now I am being told that the vehicle that i used to fix many of those trails and help build most of those bridges is to long to be on the Busy Wild It has gone up and down the busy wild probaly more than a thousand times. it is my favorite place to go wheeling.
If all of you come together and this does not work . We can take other avenues , No need to make this ugly till we half to.
When you call them ask them what they think a ORV park is or should allow, Talk to them about your sport, Tell them how you like having a legal place to go that can be maintained environmentally. Tell them about your clubs, families kids and how 4 wheeling has impacted your life and your children's lives. 4 Wheeling is a family sport. Tell them how much time you spend up there. Tell them how this might impact the local community. Take away the busy and how many people will use Elbe hills orv park Ask them why it is not ok to rub the tree's , Why after 30 years is it no longer ok to touch these trees with your vehicle. Ask them how it compares to the 1000's of leave trees they leave after they clear cut and they get blown down and is the purpose of it. Ask them what there agenda is for that park. BE SURE TO MAKE YOUR CONVERSATION FRIENDLY, IT WILL GET YOU A LOT FURTHER..
I have not listed the phone numbers for the local stores, I plan on calling them to let them know I will no longer be spending my money up there and why. I also suggest you do the same. They can and will make a impact if this does not get changed . I am going to give them Nancy's Phone Number She lives in Elbe . I bet the business owners of that community will be delighted to hear that you will not be spending your money in there community any longer because of a new rule she has implemented. A rule that EXCLUDES you from running the trail that you built your rig to run.
Doug Sutherland
Commissioner of Public Lands
Department of Natural Resources
P.O. Box 47001,
Olympia, WA 98504-7001
Phone: (360) 902-1004
FAX: (360) 902-1775
Email [email protected]
Kelly Bast Commissioner's Assistant [email protected]
360-902-1001
Bonnie Bunning Executive Dir. of Policy and Administration [email protected]
360-902-1104
Bruce Mackey Lands Steward
[email protected]
360-902-2122
Michael Grayum Government & Community Relations Director [email protected]
360-902-1015
Gretchen Nicholas Land Management [email protected]
360-902-1360
Lenny Young Forest Practices [email protected]
360-902-1744
Randy Acker South Puget Sound [email protected]
360-825-1631
.
PLEASE DO NOT HATE ON MY FRIENDS IN THE Pacific Northwest 4 Wheel Drive association. Most all of them are wonderful people to be around excluding a few. There is always a few rotten apples in every basket, They do not represent the whole organization. Most of them are spending there free time working for all of us. They are doing there very best. They struggle to get for everyone places to take our kids, friends and family's a place to enjoy. They are responsible for building and maintaining most all the legal trails out there. You don't half to agree with them all the time, but if you care about the trail system you wheel on then you should do what you can to help them out when it comes to work parties.
We are Americans, Millions of people have died so we could halve are right to freedom of speech and our own opinion. USE IT !
Reply to this post with your results from your hard work fighting for your rights . Share your conversations so we can work together to make a difference.
This is not a place to continue to ***** . It is only a place for results.
We all will be watching this to see how long it will take to get that rule changed.
WHEN WE ALL START FIGHTING TOGHETHER WE CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE.
1 person is not as loud as 1000 or 5000 or 10,000 Just imagine the impact you could make if you get everyone you know that 4 Wheels or likes the people who 4 wheel to spend the next 2 - 3 weeks calling and emailing every day , I bet it will only take a couple of days. I personally have 500 plus contacts how many do all of you have ? GETUR DONE !
Go to this web site to see when we have won
http://www.nw-wheelers.com/forum/index.php
Or
www.mudslingers4x4.com
The PNW replaced me because I fought things like this. I fought everything some say I fought to much. I don't care I'm not bitter over it anymore. This is a ridiculous rule. The Busy wild has been there more than 30 years. How is vehicle length going to change what has already happened to those trees.
I have stayed quiet now for a long while. Your war should not be with him or the PNW. You are lucky they are willing to share this info with non supportive members. I feel that Gibby is trying his best, DNR is ruthless and will not be happy until we have no place to play. You watch what she has planned for that rock she flew in by helicopter. Its not to fill the holes, She will use it to build hard pan go a round's for the bad areas. What do you think will happen to all the fun places on the busy once all those go a rounds are established ? She will slowly close it off piece by piece leaving hard pan to wheel on. Why does she care about width and length ? She's thinking ahead of you. She's thinking of the new trees the ones next to the hard pan trail. Her agenda has always been the same. I have only met 1 DNR person that was Honest and truthful all the rest are blowing smoke up our asses.
Now for all of you who ***** and moan and write mile long rebuttals to people that have no power to do anything about what your *****ing about !
Nancy needs her job we all need our jobs. The only way you are going to get rid of this rule is to make her life uncomfortable. The only voice you have is the is the pnw's and there volunteers. They give there lives to there sport. With out them there would be no Elbe. But that does not make them the only voice.
YOU HAVE A VOICE, That park belongs to everyone. Maybe DNR is not aware that their a lot of users that will be excluded or maybe they know but don't care because you have never done anything about what you dis agree about and feel it is OK to exclude you
IF YOU REALLY WANT THIS RULE TO GO AWAY THEN MAKE ALOT OF NOISE !
GET ALL YOUR FAMILY, YOUR FRIENDS, YOUR NIEGHORS INVLOVED, DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT, TAKE SOME INTITIVE FIGHT FOR YOUR RIGHTS.
Starting from the top and working your way down EMAIL and CALL these people.
Let them know what you think. Let them know that you are being discriminated against, that you have used that trail for years and now are being told that you cant go there any more. MAKE ENOUGH NOISE WITH HER BOSSES AND SHE WILL HEAR YOUR VOICE.
I fought with DNR for 8 years, I know this will work because it has before.
Don't be rude or disrespectful that will get you no where. If all of you don't come together and fight for your rights then you will have none and no right to *****. You should email this message to everyone you know, if we get 100 - 500 people to call and email that will be enough. Every person that gets involved in this needs to take the time to contact everyone of these people below. Not one ALL.
I am sorry to all my friends out there that may be upset with me over this, I spent a good amount of my life, building, fixing and fighting for that park and now I am being told that the vehicle that i used to fix many of those trails and help build most of those bridges is to long to be on the Busy Wild It has gone up and down the busy wild probaly more than a thousand times. it is my favorite place to go wheeling.
If all of you come together and this does not work . We can take other avenues , No need to make this ugly till we half to.
When you call them ask them what they think a ORV park is or should allow, Talk to them about your sport, Tell them how you like having a legal place to go that can be maintained environmentally. Tell them about your clubs, families kids and how 4 wheeling has impacted your life and your children's lives. 4 Wheeling is a family sport. Tell them how much time you spend up there. Tell them how this might impact the local community. Take away the busy and how many people will use Elbe hills orv park Ask them why it is not ok to rub the tree's , Why after 30 years is it no longer ok to touch these trees with your vehicle. Ask them how it compares to the 1000's of leave trees they leave after they clear cut and they get blown down and is the purpose of it. Ask them what there agenda is for that park. BE SURE TO MAKE YOUR CONVERSATION FRIENDLY, IT WILL GET YOU A LOT FURTHER..
I have not listed the phone numbers for the local stores, I plan on calling them to let them know I will no longer be spending my money up there and why. I also suggest you do the same. They can and will make a impact if this does not get changed . I am going to give them Nancy's Phone Number She lives in Elbe . I bet the business owners of that community will be delighted to hear that you will not be spending your money in there community any longer because of a new rule she has implemented. A rule that EXCLUDES you from running the trail that you built your rig to run.
Doug Sutherland
Commissioner of Public Lands
Department of Natural Resources
P.O. Box 47001,
Olympia, WA 98504-7001
Phone: (360) 902-1004
FAX: (360) 902-1775
Email [email protected]
Kelly Bast Commissioner's Assistant [email protected]
360-902-1001
Bonnie Bunning Executive Dir. of Policy and Administration [email protected]
360-902-1104
Bruce Mackey Lands Steward
[email protected]
360-902-2122
Michael Grayum Government & Community Relations Director [email protected]
360-902-1015
Gretchen Nicholas Land Management [email protected]
360-902-1360
Lenny Young Forest Practices [email protected]
360-902-1744
Randy Acker South Puget Sound [email protected]
360-825-1631
.
PLEASE DO NOT HATE ON MY FRIENDS IN THE Pacific Northwest 4 Wheel Drive association. Most all of them are wonderful people to be around excluding a few. There is always a few rotten apples in every basket, They do not represent the whole organization. Most of them are spending there free time working for all of us. They are doing there very best. They struggle to get for everyone places to take our kids, friends and family's a place to enjoy. They are responsible for building and maintaining most all the legal trails out there. You don't half to agree with them all the time, but if you care about the trail system you wheel on then you should do what you can to help them out when it comes to work parties.
We are Americans, Millions of people have died so we could halve are right to freedom of speech and our own opinion. USE IT !
Reply to this post with your results from your hard work fighting for your rights . Share your conversations so we can work together to make a difference.
This is not a place to continue to ***** . It is only a place for results.
We all will be watching this to see how long it will take to get that rule changed.
WHEN WE ALL START FIGHTING TOGHETHER WE CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE.
1 person is not as loud as 1000 or 5000 or 10,000 Just imagine the impact you could make if you get everyone you know that 4 Wheels or likes the people who 4 wheel to spend the next 2 - 3 weeks calling and emailing every day , I bet it will only take a couple of days. I personally have 500 plus contacts how many do all of you have ? GETUR DONE !
Go to this web site to see when we have won
http://www.nw-wheelers.com/forum/index.php
Or
www.mudslingers4x4.com
Binder
Well-Known Member
Here ya go.
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=46.09.190
When I wrote "any LEO" I mean any LEO not just DNR. This stuff is state law and there are more of them too. It's 3.30 AM and I don't have the motivation/ time to find more of them right now. I think you mean well Dale but these people are BS'ing you. Someone (LEO) needs to get off of their ass and do some field work or none of this makes any difference.
I sure am glad that I moved out of that state and went to a state that is much, much more friendly to the four wheel community and understands and profits fron them being there! My Scout is stock 119" and now streched to 121" and can go thru the busy not rubbing a tree one! I know it's terrible to say but I was there bulding some of that new busy and my dad helped build the orignal busy, I would run my Scout thru there and let them ticket me!:fawkdancesmiley:
I understand what you're saying but the LEOs simply don't patrol the ORV park. They may run around the campground once in a while or check for meth labs and such but that's it. They have absolutely no involvement with trail activity.
(i) On any public lands in violation of rules and regulations of the agency administering such lands; and
This here is the key point. The DNR itself doesnt have significant regulations of activity on the land they manage. Their current rules and reg would read like, "do not speed", but without a speed limit or if there was a speed limit, no signs. How about a rule of "stay on the trail" and the wheeler shows up at Elbe and runs the swamp trail. How in the world is anyway supposed to know where the "legal" trail is at the end of the swamp trail?
The signage (which includes marking the trail corridors) is more than just a courtesy for the users. It let's the uninformed know where they're allowed to go and what they're NOT allowed to do. It will then give the DNR enforcement the teeth to write tickets to violators. You can't give someone a ticket for going the wrong way on busy if the trail is not marked accordingly. You can't give the user a ticket for taking a bypass on the swamp trail that they didn't KNOW was a bypass, because there was nothing to indicate that it was.
I see people in trail posts all over the place say, "we opted for the bypass". Binder, I'm sure you know that there ARE no bypasses that are part of the legal trail. If the trails are properly marked and users are clearly informed to stay on the trail, then they have no excuse to say, "I didn't know."
This will do NOTHING to prevent those who intentionally break the rules from continuing to do it, unless they are caught.
Good signage, gatekeepers, trail markers and instructions will help the honest people who don't know better, know what to do. For the dishonest, all it will do is give the DNR the teeth to write a ticket if they get caught. Pretty much the same impact that all laws or rules have.
longfield
Well-Known Member
longfield
Well-Known Member
Hes not the one making the rules its those lovely folks down in oly.and back in DC. that make the rules. We just try to figure out how to get the best we can from them. Now if we had say 25,000 members in the PNW4WDA then perhaps we could do more about getting these rules changed but since the majority of wheelers cant see past their wallets well here we are:eeek:
$35.00 is a awful lot of money to support the only Org of its kind in our area
Yes but he gives them the idea, im sure they didn't come up with this on there own.
Yes we payed the $35.00 for a while and never recived anything and no renewal slip, so we don't know were it went or even if you got it.
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Steve, you have some very valid points and absolutely people should make their voice heard. I encourage that heartily, but I don't want them to just shout and complain, I want them to get out and get involved themselves. You'll have way more impact on the DNR's decisions when you make a comittment to the meetings and work parties than you will be just making noise. Nancy and the other's that affect this area are a lot more likely to listen to people then know and have been working with than just a bunch of noisy calls. This ties in with my reply to Pokey. People need to stop just wheeling and personally take an interest and get active. Put up or shut up fits here. Everyone would have a MUCH better understanding if they didn't get all there information ONLY from places like this. Much of the junk I see on threads like this is not healthy debate or information sharing, it's plain nonsense from people who really have no idea what goes on or what's going on.
I have some points that I disagree with though.
1) The DNR is NOT out to close the trails. You haven't been involved with the DNR for the past couple of years and if you talk with Doug Southerland or Nancy Barker you'll find that DNR has officially had a complete change of heart with respect to motorized recreation on their lands, in the past few years. Some of that I'm sure was in part due to your activity at Elbe Hills, and the Quadrapaws at Tahuya. (there may be other's but I'm not personally familiar with them). They've recognized the increaseing usage and have publicly and officially had a change of heart. A little over a year ago they began re-writing policies with a complete about face regarding motorized recreation. You had some very negative experiences in the past with DNR people I understand that, but that's NOT the case now. The making of hardened bypasses is NOT the DNR's idea. That's my idea that I've been fighting for over the past two years. This is part of the "don't know what's really going on" that I was talking about earlier in this post. We've been activitely fighting for the hardened bypasses so that we DON'T have to pave the main trails and the most challenging obstacles. We've already been able to make an entirely new LEGAL bypass around the mudholes at the lowest point of the busy to protect our interest in keeping those holes for those who want them. We've had two work parties now where we've dug the mud out of existing mud holes, put in a hardened bottom with logs and PUT THE MUD BACK IN. Unlike what happened with Tahuya where they basically ended up with hard pan water holes.
2) I am in favor with trail restrictions. I'm equally in favor or using gatekeepers to keep out underprepared vehicles as I am within limiting vehicle size on a specific trail or section of trail. There is certainly a give and take game in the politicing that's required. This is the first attempt in this area to initiate a trail restriction other than the PNW4WDA Trail Jamboree and that restriction is emposed by the USFS on the Jamboree. If they want to fight and argue about the trail restriction (which is 76" wide on most trails that are restricted) they simply won't get to have the event. You're going to easily get as many small rig owners in favor of maintaining the busy as a tight trail that favor restrictions as you are large vehicle owners that feel that they are unfairly being excluded.
3) Implementing a restriction like this is just about impossible to please everyone. I've had many comments in favor of FINALLY doing something to maintain the busywild for the SWB vehicles that it was originally designed for and built by. I fully understand that a 120" long buggy with rear steer can navigate the trail with less impact than a full bodied Bronco that happens to fit in the guidelines. But the fact is there WILL be restrictions to keep oversized vehicle out or to be able to ticket them if they choose to ignore the rules. There is plenty of room to discuss and debate with the DNR, what those restrictions should be but to do that you MUST show up and get involved. What we absolutely don't want is something in place such as, "No oversized vehicles allowed" and let the DNR or anyone else decide what is or is not too big on a case by case basis. That IS asking for trouble.
4) Lastly, Steve, with your long term involvement with Elbe I have to say that I'm suprised about your comment about wonder about what difference length makes. You know VERY well that longer wheel base vehicle cannot negotiate tight corners as easily as short wheel base vehicles, and as a result, the must rub more against the trees and the root structures and evenutally widen the trail. To take a devil's advocate point of view, the big rigs are ruining the trail for the smaller rigs. That can equally be said, and it HAS been said for a long time by a LOT of people.
What are the most appropriate restrictions to maintainn the integrity of the trail while maximizing user access, that's the point that still has plenty of room for discussion and debate. Not having a restriction on size is simply not an alternative here.
I have some points that I disagree with though.
1) The DNR is NOT out to close the trails. You haven't been involved with the DNR for the past couple of years and if you talk with Doug Southerland or Nancy Barker you'll find that DNR has officially had a complete change of heart with respect to motorized recreation on their lands, in the past few years. Some of that I'm sure was in part due to your activity at Elbe Hills, and the Quadrapaws at Tahuya. (there may be other's but I'm not personally familiar with them). They've recognized the increaseing usage and have publicly and officially had a change of heart. A little over a year ago they began re-writing policies with a complete about face regarding motorized recreation. You had some very negative experiences in the past with DNR people I understand that, but that's NOT the case now. The making of hardened bypasses is NOT the DNR's idea. That's my idea that I've been fighting for over the past two years. This is part of the "don't know what's really going on" that I was talking about earlier in this post. We've been activitely fighting for the hardened bypasses so that we DON'T have to pave the main trails and the most challenging obstacles. We've already been able to make an entirely new LEGAL bypass around the mudholes at the lowest point of the busy to protect our interest in keeping those holes for those who want them. We've had two work parties now where we've dug the mud out of existing mud holes, put in a hardened bottom with logs and PUT THE MUD BACK IN. Unlike what happened with Tahuya where they basically ended up with hard pan water holes.
2) I am in favor with trail restrictions. I'm equally in favor or using gatekeepers to keep out underprepared vehicles as I am within limiting vehicle size on a specific trail or section of trail. There is certainly a give and take game in the politicing that's required. This is the first attempt in this area to initiate a trail restriction other than the PNW4WDA Trail Jamboree and that restriction is emposed by the USFS on the Jamboree. If they want to fight and argue about the trail restriction (which is 76" wide on most trails that are restricted) they simply won't get to have the event. You're going to easily get as many small rig owners in favor of maintaining the busy as a tight trail that favor restrictions as you are large vehicle owners that feel that they are unfairly being excluded.
3) Implementing a restriction like this is just about impossible to please everyone. I've had many comments in favor of FINALLY doing something to maintain the busywild for the SWB vehicles that it was originally designed for and built by. I fully understand that a 120" long buggy with rear steer can navigate the trail with less impact than a full bodied Bronco that happens to fit in the guidelines. But the fact is there WILL be restrictions to keep oversized vehicle out or to be able to ticket them if they choose to ignore the rules. There is plenty of room to discuss and debate with the DNR, what those restrictions should be but to do that you MUST show up and get involved. What we absolutely don't want is something in place such as, "No oversized vehicles allowed" and let the DNR or anyone else decide what is or is not too big on a case by case basis. That IS asking for trouble.
4) Lastly, Steve, with your long term involvement with Elbe I have to say that I'm suprised about your comment about wonder about what difference length makes. You know VERY well that longer wheel base vehicle cannot negotiate tight corners as easily as short wheel base vehicles, and as a result, the must rub more against the trees and the root structures and evenutally widen the trail. To take a devil's advocate point of view, the big rigs are ruining the trail for the smaller rigs. That can equally be said, and it HAS been said for a long time by a LOT of people.
What are the most appropriate restrictions to maintainn the integrity of the trail while maximizing user access, that's the point that still has plenty of room for discussion and debate. Not having a restriction on size is simply not an alternative here.
Bobby, I don't know if you read the original 20+ page thread on this subject, but you don't have your facts straight.
I did not, nor did ANYONE at the last focus group meeting come up with the idea of putting restrictions on the busy. We were told that there WILL be restrictions and we were given the opportunity to discuss what the restriction was going to be. They came up with this idea completely on their own, or at least it was with NEVER suggested by me.
All I can say is WOW just WOW Steve. I guess its easier to tell people what they want to hear and not what they need to hear. All I can say folks is follow Gibbys lead Hes on the right track with Elbe. I may add some more to this later but for now I am just baffeled as to why we are at this point
aircrawler
Well-Known Member
WB
HEY BOB whats your wheel base on the new buggy? On the subject I don't mind changing the wheel base on my rig...its linked big deal..ya know! easy shiv.
Porter ...keep it nice! telling someone to "go somewhere else" is not that cool. This "SPORT" was not founded on that. simply the coolness of it brought it on ..along with friendly NON ego haveing folks. I am not disagreeing the fact that the trees need to be loved or maintained or down talking the folks that I will thank right now to keep it going smooth. But I also believe a DRIVER can make the trail with out harming the surroundings intentionally!
AS for the "right"...it is and will be, these other folks are just trying to keep the collateral damage of the forests down to a controllable level
:corn:
HEY BOB whats your wheel base on the new buggy? On the subject I don't mind changing the wheel base on my rig...its linked big deal..ya know! easy shiv.
Porter ...keep it nice! telling someone to "go somewhere else" is not that cool. This "SPORT" was not founded on that. simply the coolness of it brought it on ..along with friendly NON ego haveing folks. I am not disagreeing the fact that the trees need to be loved or maintained or down talking the folks that I will thank right now to keep it going smooth. But I also believe a DRIVER can make the trail with out harming the surroundings intentionally!
AS for the "right"...it is and will be, these other folks are just trying to keep the collateral damage of the forests down to a controllable level
:corn:
