Elbe Hills Focus Group

[reddog64]

just one more thing. I always thought that a ORV trail was established to give us a legal place to go play. where we could maintain the trails and deal with environmental impacts.
people want to do the right thing and go where tire spinning and tree bumping is supposed to happen. That is what the trail is there for to give us a place where we can do that. I would like DNR to give tell us what there definition of a trail is. If they are worried about bumping trees then what do they think a 4 wheel drive trail should be.
Closing trails will only result in the mass destruction of DNR and other private lands and no way to maintain them.

:beer: :beer: :beer: :beer:

Exactly,
The reason i wouldnt go into the mountains and old logging roads is cause i dont belong there, my K5 belongs on DNR lands, where if i spin a tire or rub a tree, or winch out (using a tree saver of course) it's OK.

Well Said! :awesomework:

 

[reddog64]

HERE IS A SOLUTION simple and over with. If you do not like it?

Talk to your DNR represenative / write your congressman or break the law.

*but remember if you are caught on the BUSYWILD in a fullsize or 4x4 with a wheelbase over 82inches in width from tire to tire, you will be fined and possibly your vehicle impounded if you have already been warned and fined.


====================

This simple rule / restriction and signage along the entire busywild trail would benefit the trail. with a new reader board at the front of the trail system.

cheap / easy and done.

Using the words "No Full Size vehicles" is not cool...
If you want to say no vehicles over "XX" wheelbase, i wont be so cranky :awesomework:

 

[reddog64]

Is the 82 inches in question outside of tire to outside of tire?

 

[Jaydog]

Is the 82 inches in question outside of tire to outside of tire?

Yes, actually outside of bulge to outside of bulge at the PSI used on the trail.
The bridges in Elbe IIRC are 83" rub rail to rub rail, wider rigs dislodge the rub rails. The rub rails help hold the bridge together.

 

[pokey]

Let me throw a couple of things out there. I am a PNW member and have been for many years now. I do not agree with the restrictions, I first heard that this restriction was being imposed just like the rest of you. Most of the pnw membership may not even be aware of this meeting. there is no discussion of it in there forum or in there news paper and has not had time to get fully discussed at he region meetings,
DO NOT BELIEVE BECOUSE YOU ARE NOT A PNW MEMBER YOU WILL NOT HAVE A IMPACT AT THIS MEETING. First of all. Last month it was the rule and that was the way it was and we needed to deal with it. That is No longer true. Now it is up for discussion, not because of any thing other than a lot of people being concerned over the decisions being made about our trail. DNR is only used to 4 - 10 people showing up to theses meetings. and feel that they are getting good input from the majority of users. DNR doesn't know that the majority of the people that use that trail are not members of the PNW.
I GAURENTEE THAT HAVING 200 - 300 PEOPLE SHOW UP WILL MAKE A IMPACT. I agree that not everyone will get to talk but DNR will realize that there are a lot more than just jeeps that use that trail and that care about the trail and you will get on there mailing list and will be given the opportunity to be a part of the future of the trail.

NOW FOR THE PNW AND WHAT I THINK ABOUT IT AND YOU BEING A PART OF IT.
the PNW is a great organization that has done a lot. they have built and maintained most all the legal trails in our state. They also promote mud bogs and Jamborees and all kinds of fun stuff. If you were to join and got involved you would have a voice in the organization.
Here's the problem and it is a big problem, Most of the pnw's members are getting older and the older ones are the ones who do most all the work. The membership is fading and getting smaller and smaller each year. Yet we continue to see the sport grow. We need something out there to help us keep our trails open and if the pnw dies then there will not be a association to do that unless we create a new one or get involved with the current one. The current one is established and could get really big and does what its members wants. Another problem if the pnw is mostly jeeps or swb vehicles then what do you think there choices are. All members have a voice in the pnw. Just attend the region meetings and speak up. if you join then get involved and make a difference. There are members of the pnw that insult non pnw members and chase potential people away with there I'm better than you your not envolved poor attitude. I am sorry for that and that does not represent the whole PNW. there is a lot of people that are involved that are really great. The thought of starting another association is being discussed among some younger generation 4 wheelers. I personally feel it would be easier to infiltrate the pnw with younger generation and new generation 4 wheelers and get involved with a association that is well established. If the PNW is unable to continue its existence or no longer represents our needs as 4 wheelers then the time may come to look at creating something new.

Thanks for reiterating most of my points Steve. Unfortunately there seems to be a large constituency out there that seems to wants to be represented but isn't willing to do what it takes to be represented. The PNW4WDA can only represent its membership and that also means the members that give us direction. Its too bad that it takes such an event to get people involved in the process. Unfortunately I fear that most of these people will go back to doing whatever it is they do and within 3 months things will be the way they have been forever. What will it take for this "new generation" to get and stay involved:eeek:

By the way our membership isn't declining its been increasing for the last few years. Were not the size we were in the 80s but were growing not shrinking as you stated

 

[pokey]

I think...... my personal opinion is;

the ofroading sport / hobby has grown so big and increases to grow so fast, maybe because of the internet and available mod's / parts to make just about any rig very capable, we have to accomadate "ALL" rig's on all trails.

with that said, how do we adjust or open up all trails to all rigs?most trails currently have had all types of rigs on them, there are more than likely a by-pass around the hardest parts already. can't we as you said...

MAINTAIN THE TRAILS, and incorparate the by-passes or go-arounds so that each and every rig is able to follow the mainline trail - regardless where it's at, and manage them to include rather than exclude a certain size rig.


sure comman sense plays a big part in this, but we should be able to re-structure trails everwhere for everyone. most as i said have already been run by most every type of rig from stock to extreme.

this would end all the bickering, and need for restrictions.

like most agrue, this is what the place is for... thats why i'am here. to offroad, not based on rig size or driver actions. we can go back and maintain the trails, have everyone realize what is happening by determining the impact on the trails - by usage or damage. we can repair or fix or keep them maintained and everyone win wins.

where a trail is subject to restrictions, we should be smart enough to find a solution -

You cant open all trails to all rigs. I could spend all day on this but who wants to read that:haha: Bottom line is trails that are existing have some amount of protection by being "grandfatherd" When you talk about making changes to them (widening) You open up a can of worms. Most of the time any significant change to a trail must fit into a certain criterea and the biggest one is that it must have a nuetral or positive impact on the surrounding area. Since opening up a trail to allow wider bigger rigs would also bring more traffic to the trail its gonna be hard to show thats its nuetal or positive due to the increased impact on the enviroment around the trail (soil, hydro, wildlife,oligests) Even if you were able to find a land manager willing to do this it would first require a feasability study, Then a NEEPA study and finaly a EA (enviromental assesment) all of this taking on average about 5 years and costing $50 or so thousand dollars. This dosent even touch on the fact that along the way the enviromental groups will be watching and sueing at any oppertunity.

 

[Comet]

What saddens me is your twisted view of entitlement...

What entitles you to be on any trail???

You really have a sense of being better than everyone else because your smaller and won't do any damage???

I think you should be alot more informed before you speak,,, pumpkin...

When did I ever say I was entitled to be on any trail, my comment stated exactly the opposite. I won't even take the bait on your "being a lot more informed before I comment" snipe.

I'm aware he's a mod... Did he even read my posts???

And the respect thing,,, I've been the one getting attacked...

Because he's a moderator means I don't deserve any respect???

Now that I know the pecking order on who's aloud to speak their mind I'll take that into consideration...:awesomework:

1. Did I ever name any names?
2. I always give people respect until they do or say something to lose it.

Just because you can fit on a trail or even find the trail for that matter doesn't mean you should be on it...

I, on the other hand, can and should... I've lived here for 38 yrs... I've paid my share of taxes... And have just as much right as any other American to enjoy the outdoors...

This attitude that you have toward anyone in a fullsize rig is pretty childish...

Again, IQ test, son...

And for the record this is what started my rant. Paying taxes gives you no right to wheel anywhere you want, which is what you implied, intended or not. This is what made me, and probably others, believe that you would wheel anywhere you want simply because you are a tax payer. Wheeling is a privledge, not a right. Talk to some wheelers on the east coast, or in other countries and get a taste of our future if we continue to bury our heads in the sand making posts like this.

 

[pokey]

This is a bit off topic but relevant just the same. Recently on our clubs christmas tree run into the Gifford Pinchot forest we stopped at this isolated snowpark as we have for the past several years. Take a good look at this outhouse. There is also a small warming cabin near it in the same pristine condition. Now compare those to the buildings at Elbe, Evans and any of our other 4 wheel drive parks and you might start to see why the agencys get so flustrated with our sport when they keep haveing to find funds over and over to repair or replace facilitys at our parks. Who does this to us and why:booo:
Signboards are great and very nice to have but look what happens to them at our playareas:booo:

 

[Gibby1]

So Jim, you're referring to those intelligent wheelers (no one else is going to be there at the elbe campground camping....) who took chainsaws to the shelter, or rammed the concrete in the shelter busting up the fireplace, or the ones who burnt the nice sign that the DNR put up, or the one's who took an axe to the new bathroom door or the one's who shot down the ONE WAY signs on the busywild... and even the complete idiots who are met on the trail and informed that they are going the wrong way and say they know and they don't care. Or the one's who hook up winch cable to pull stumps and logs out of the way that were blocking illegal bypasses. You're not referring to those people are you?

Responsibile wheelers are going to have to start taking action against these irresponsible people. In every case you can be guaranteed that these people were out there in a group and people saw them but said nothing...

 

[pokey]

So Jim, you're referring to those intelligent wheelers (no one else is going to be there at the elbe campground camping....) who took chainsaws to the shelter, or rammed the concrete in the shelter busting up the fireplace, or the ones who burnt the nice sign that the DNR put up, or the one's who took an axe to the new bathroom door or the one's who shot down the ONE WAY signs on the busywild... and even the complete idiots who are met on the trail and informed that they are going the wrong way and say they know and they don't care. Or the one's who hook up winch cable to pull stumps and logs out of the way that were blocking illegal bypasses. You're not referring to those people are you?

Responsibile wheelers are going to have to start taking action against these irresponsible people. In every case you can be guaranteed that these people were out there in a group and people saw them but said nothing...

yep those would be the ones:booo:

 

[GRNTACO]

This is a bit off topic but relevant just the same. Recently on our clubs christmas tree run into the Gifford Pinchot forest we stopped at this isolated snowpark as we have for the past several years. Take a good look at this outhouse. There is also a small warming cabin near it in the same pristine condition. Now compare those to the buildings at Elbe, Evans and any of our other 4 wheel drive parks and you might start to see why the agencys get so flustrated with our sport when they keep haveing to find funds over and over to repair or replace facilitys at our parks. Who does this to us and why:booo:
Signboards are great and very nice to have but look what happens to them at our playareas:booo:

It's amazing what a picture can do............

 

[reddog64]

Are you saying it's the fact that my K5 is 86 inches wide that the outhouse looks like crap?

 

[Jaydog]

Are you saying it's the fact that my K5 is 86 inches wide that the outhouse looks like crap?

I think he is referring to the attitude of people rather than what they wheel, I too have a fullsize, it's a '71 K20, but when I go to Elbe I take a Jeep.

 

[pokey]

Are you saying it's the fact that my K5 is 86 inches wide that the outhouse looks like crap?

pull yer head out you Drama queen:haha: :haha: :haha:

 

[Comet]

So Jim, you're referring to those intelligent wheelers (no one else is going to be there at the elbe campground camping....) who took chainsaws to the shelter, or rammed the concrete in the shelter busting up the fireplace, or the ones who burnt the nice sign that the DNR put up, or the one's who took an axe to the new bathroom door or the one's who shot down the ONE WAY signs on the busywild... and even the complete idiots who are met on the trail and informed that they are going the wrong way and say they know and they don't care. Or the one's who hook up winch cable to pull stumps and logs out of the way that were blocking illegal bypasses. You're not referring to those people are you?

Responsibile wheelers are going to have to start taking action against these irresponsible people. In every case you can be guaranteed that these people were out there in a group and people saw them but said nothing...

As hard as this is to say, I've come to the conclusion that wheelers as a whole are complete idiots. Dirt bikers have their **** together and they "get it." It baffles my mind why people just spout off their opinions on things they have no clue about and don't care to get educated about and act like their word is gospel. Why people just want to rant on the internet as opposed to going to meetings, learning the process, getting involved and doing something about it completely beyond me. Then these same people are first in line to bitch and whine that their favorite trail they've been wheeling on for XX years is now closed, blah, blah, blah. Who need greenies when we got ourselves to blame for closures?

 

[Brian H]

Yes, actually outside of bulge to outside of bulge at the PSI used on the trail.
The bridges in Elbe IIRC are 82" rub rail to rub rail, wider rigs dislodge the rub rails. The rub rails help hold the bridge together.

FIXED

 

[gasman1]

:stirpot:
So what will unfold this evening over the Elbe ORV meeting. Wich starts in a little over 48 hours from now?
:corn:

 

[TreeClimber]

From the PNW site

Arlene Brooks
Washington Executive Director 2003-06


Joined: 11 Apr 2003
Posts: 198
Location: Bl.Dia.
Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 10:03 am Post subject: Elbe Hills ORV Focus Group Meeting - The following was received from Nancy Barker, Elbe Hills Public Use Forester, announcing the ORV Focus meeting scheduled for Thursday January 10th (7:00 - 9:00).

Location - New Hope Fellowship Church (next to Graham Fire Station #3)
8120 304th Street East - Graham

Agenda topics are: Trail Ratings/Restrictions; Trail Adoptions; Campground Issues; State Lands Update; and a Round Robin session.

There will be discussion on misinformation on new vehicle size restrictions; contribution to the discussion on this topic and others is encouraged, this will be your opportunity to set priorities for 2008 for Elbe Hills.

Arlene Brooks, WA. St. Director

 

[mud4funtoy]

Yes, actually outside of bulge to outside of bulge at the PSI used on the trail.
The bridges in Elbe IIRC are 83" rub rail to rub rail, wider rigs dislodge the rub rails. The rub rails help hold the bridge together.

I have a question about those rub rails. When we put them on they were not the ones that were meant for the busy wild bridge. We used 6x8 instead of the 4x4' s because that was some material that we had laying around do to a DNR miss order.
Also the rub rails do not and are not what holds the bridge together. Under the rub rails is angle Iron that holds the planks in. If you go over to the bridge on the sunshine trail there is a bridge with no rub rails and you can see the dynamics's of what holds the planks in. The rub rails are designed to guide the driver as to not fall off the bridge. We have plenty of rub rails and they are designed to be changed.
If we are going to ask for a width restriction we will need to consider the width between the trees and the actual width of the bridge.
Rub rails are designed to be rubbed and driven on if needed.

 

[mud4funtoy]

Arlene Brooks
Washington Executive Director 2003-06


Joined: 11 Apr 2003
Posts: 198
Location: Bl.Dia.
Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 10:03 am Post subject: Elbe Hills ORV Focus Group Meeting - The following was received from Nancy Barker, Elbe Hills Public Use Forester, announcing the ORV Focus meeting scheduled for Thursday January 10th (7:00 - 9:00).

Location - New Hope Fellowship Church (next to Graham Fire Station #3)
8120 304th Street East - Graham

Agenda topics are: Trail Ratings/Restrictions; Trail Adoptions; Campground Issues; State Lands Update; and a Round Robin session.

There will be discussion on misinformation on new vehicle size restrictions; contribution to the discussion on this topic and others is encouraged, this will be your opportunity to set priorities for 2008 for Elbe Hills.

Arlene Brooks, WA. St. Director

Almost sounds like the new rule is now misinformation. Your continued support will make it disappear. Your showing up at the meeting tomorrow night will insure that.