• Help Support Hardline Crawlers :

ID small chevy

Dear joshwho?;
Please allow me to explain why your engine cannot possibly run on 32 PSI of forced induction boost:

All petroleum based fuels have an octane rating. This is known as the RIN or Rating Index Number. What the RIN tells us is just how much a grade of fuel can be compressed before it detonates spontaneously. The higher the RIN, the more the fuel can be compressed before it ignite due to the friction caused by compressing the air. Since we cannot compress a liquid, it's only the air inside of an engine's cylinders that gets compressed, and since whenever air is compressed, friction is a result and therefore produces heat, we can state that the RIN relates to much heat the fuel can resist before the effects of heat takes over and causes the fuel inside of the fuel/air mixture to detonate spontaneously.

For example the lowest rating number is zero that is represented by the petroleum product called Hepthane. Hepthane will ignite spontaneously at sea level pressure. In other words, it needs to be maintained in a vacuum state or it will ignite on it's own.

Actually, the correct term for *detonation* is PRE-detonation* because that is what occurs when a fuel/air mixture ignites before the spark from the spark plug ignites the charge in the engine's cylinders.

A fuel with an Octane RIN of 92 can sustain 140 PSI before it starts to pre-detonate. When pre-detonation occurs, the resulting explosion forces itself past the not fully closed intake valve.

This explosion in turn travels forward, producing all sorts of neat pyrotechnic effect along it's route, to say nothing of the tremendous BOOM noise that accompanies it.

And this is why those Roots blowers on the drag cars are all required to have blower restraints. When a pre-detonation occurs, it does so with such force that it can blow a supercharger completely off of the engine and 100 feet or more in the air.

I remember the days before blower restraints when I witnessed one ride that the pre-detonated and the blower went through the big O in the Champion Sparkplug billboard. Needless to say, that was wayyyyyyyyy COOL!

In short, 32 PSI would bring your static CR up to around 40:1 which is needless to say...impossible. With 32 PSI, you could run the engine on the effects of the turbo alone. What I mean by this is that you could effectively run your turbo with a static piston CR of 0:1, which of course is impossible as the engine would not be able to support combustion at anytime less than full throttle.
Your friend;
LAMAR
 
Last edited:
Dear joshwho?;
Please allow me to explain why your engine cannot possibly run on 32 PSI of forced induction boost:

A fuel with an Octane RIN of 92 can sustain 140 PSI before it starts to pre-detonate. When pre-detonation occurs, the resulting explosion forces itself past the not fully closed intake valve.Your friend;
LAMAR

At what temp does this take place?
 
Dear joshwho?;
Please allow me to explain why your engine cannot possibly run on 32 PSI of forced induction boost:

All petroleum based fuels have an octane rating. This is known as the RIN or Rating Index Number. What the RIN tells us is just how much a grade of fuel can be compressed before it detonates spontaneously. The higher the RIN, the more the fuel can be compressed before it ignite due to the friction caused by compressing the air. Since we cannot compress a liquid, it's only the air inside of an engine's cylinders that gets compressed, and since whenever air is compressed, friction is a result and therefore produces heat, we can state that the RIN relates to much heat the fuel can resist before the effects of heat takes over and causes the fuel inside of the fuel/air mixture to detonate spontaneously.

For example the lowest rating number is zero that is represented by the petroleum product called Hepthane. Hepthane will ignite spontaneously at sea level pressure. In other words, it needs to be maintained in a vacuum state or it will ignite on it's own.

Actually, the correct term for *detonation* is PRE-detonation* because that is what occurs when a fuel/air mixture ignites before the spark from the spark plug ignites the charge in the engine's cylinders.

A fuel with an Octane RIN of 92 can sustain 140 PSI before it starts to pre-detonate. When pre-detonation occurs, the resulting explosion forces itself past the not fully closed intake valve.

This explosion in turn travels forward, producing all sorts of neat pyrotechnic effect along it's route, to say nothing of the tremendous BOOM noise that accompanies it.

And this is why those Roots blowers on the drag cars are all required to have blower restraints. When a pre-detonation occurs, it does so with such force that it can blow a supercharger completely off of the engine and 100 feet or more in the air.

I remember the days before blower restraints when I witnessed one ride that the pre-detonated and the blower went through the big O in the Champion Sparkplug billboard. Needless to say, that was wayyyyyyyyy COOL!

In short, 32 PSI would bring your static CR up to around 40:1 which is needless to say...impossible. With 32 PSI, you could run the engine on the effects of the turbo alone. What I mean by this is that you could effectively run your turbo with a static piston CR of 0:1, which of course is impossible as the engine would not be able to support combustion at anytime less than full throttle.
Your friend;
LAMAR

We have had many LEAN backfires that have blown the top of the intake off and blown charge piping coupler hoses off, but the car usually runs 26-28 psi and it is not uncommon by any means for it to run 32psi. PERIOD. Datalogging AND a boost gauge don't lie the same amount at the same time. You are very well educated in everything we've discussed so far and I respect everything you've said and I want to stay friendly about this and keep it from turning into a pissing match, but the portions relating to boost (specificly turbo'd applications) seem to be somewhat lacking. Combustion chamber design, quench, charge temp and chamber turbulance don't have anything to do with how much pressure an air-fuel mixture can endure in an engine before ignition? I don't belive that for an instant.
 
Dear joshwho?;
Please allow me to explain why your engine cannot possibly run on 32 PSI of forced induction boost:

A fuel with an Octane RIN of 92 can sustain 140 PSI before it starts to pre-detonate. When pre-detonation occurs, the resulting explosion forces itself past the not fully closed intake valve.

Your friend;
LAMAR

What kind of boost can E85 and E98 take in the formula you have used to determine that 32psi isn't possible on 92 octane? We'll say at compression ratios of 8.5:1 and at 10:1

Also in the formula you used waht kind of boost is the "maximum" that 92 octane can be subjected to at 8.5:1 compression?
 
We have had many LEAN backfires that have blown the top of the intake off and blown charge piping coupler hoses off, but the car usually runs 26-28 psi and it is not uncommon by any means for it to run 32psi. PERIOD. Datalogging AND a boost gauge don't lie the same amount at the same time. You are very well educated in everything we've discussed so far and I respect everything you've said and I want to stay friendly about this and keep it from turning into a pissing match, but the portions relating to boost (specificly turbo'd applications) seem to be somewhat lacking. Combustion chamber design, quench, charge temp and chamber turbulance don't have anything to do with how much pressure an air-fuel mixture can endure in an engine before ignition? I don't belive that for an instant.

Dear joshwho?;

At 32 PSI of boost? They would mean absolutely nothing.
You can't alter the laws of physics my friend. You can't build an engine that produces enough exhaust gasses in order to spool up a turbo to 32 PSI. Or even 10 PSI, for that matter. To produce 32 PSI of boost from a turbocharger would require an inlet over 10" in diameter with an outlet of less than 1" in diameter.

I'm not even sure of the intercooler requirements that would be necessary in order to cool down 32 PSI of compresed air. With any forced induction, the unit must be able to produce a high VOLUME of compressed air.

It's the simple laws of physics. As pressure increases, likewise does the volume decrease. As volume increases so too pressure also decreases.

In order to produce 32 PSI in an outlet tube 2.5" in diameter, the compressor housing would be larger than the motor itself!

In funny car engines, a 14-71 blower is capable of producing 18PSI of boost at 6K RPMs and that's a LOT of boost! Of course, those engines burn nitromethane too. About 12 to 15 GALLONS of nitromethane, each and every pass. Even with nitromethane as the fuel, with 18 PSI of boost, pre-detonations due occur.

If I were you, I'd look closely at the boost gauge, my friend. 3.5 PSI in an SBC would be considered as a lot of boost, not overly much, but getting somewhat close to the edge of the engine's limits on 92 octane gasoline.
Your friend;
LAMAR
 
What is the maximum boost that this fuel can handle?

SPECIFICATION SHEET FOR C-16

(Typical Values) Specific Gravity: .735 @ 60
 
...and what about this stuff?

SPECIFICATION SHEET FOR VP Import

(Typical Values) Specific Gravity: .744 @ 60
 
What kind of boost can E85 and E98 take in the formula you have used to determine that 32psi isn't possible on 92 octane? We'll say at compression ratios of 8.5:1 and at 10:1

Also in the formula you used waht kind of boost is the "maximum" that 92 octane can be subjected to at 8.5:1 compression?
Dear joshwho?:
OK, to try and answer your question. With 92 octane fuel, the maximum overall static CR is 12.4:1 and that's REALLY pushing the envelope. Knowing this, a 454 CID engine with static CR of 8.2:1 can (somewhat) safely utilize 6 PSI of boost at 6K RPMs. If it were my engine, I'd err towards the safe side and underdrive it down to 5 PSI. Replacing engine parts all of the time can get expensive.
Your friend;
LAMAR
P.S. Since I don't play around with sissy engines it's going to take me a moment to get you the info that you are looking for with a 355 CID SBC.
 
Dear joshwho?;

At 32 PSI of boost? They would mean absolutely nothing.
You can't alter the laws of physics my friend. You can't build an engine that produces enough exhaust gasses in order to spool up a turbo to 32 PSI. Or even 10 PSI, for that matter. To produce 32 PSI of boost from a turbocharger would require an inlet over 10" in diameter with an outlet of less than 1" in diameter.

I'm not even sure of the intercooler requirements that would be necessary in order to cool down 32 PSI of compresed air. With any forced induction, the unit must be able to produce a high VOLUME of compressed air.

If I were you, I'd look closely at the boost gauge, my friend. 3.5 PSI in an SBC would be considered as a lot of boost, not overly much, but getting somewhat close to the edge of the engine's limits on 92 octane gasoline.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Seriously? You REALLY need to reconsider your math! :haha: 3.5 PSI? NO WAY!

So are you sayin that there is no way a 4 cylinder would be able to make 45 PSI?
 
Dear joshwho?;
OK, in order for a 355 CID engine to run 6 PSI of boost at 6K RPMs, the static CR will need to be on the order of 7.8:1 to 8.0:1. Any higher than 8.0:1 and the boost pressure will need to be dropped down to 5 PSI.

At 6 PSI of boost with a static CR of 7.8:1, the final static CR will be 12.2:1, which is still pushing it, but also still manageable with an automatic timing controller.
Your friend;
LAMAR
 
Dear joshwho?;
OK, in order for a 355 CID engine to run 6 PSI of boost at 6K RPMs, the static CR will need to be on the order of 7.8:1 to 8.0:1. Any higher than 8.0:1 and the boost pressure will need to be dropped down to 5 PSI.

At 6 PSI of boost with a static CR of 7.8:1, the final static CR will be 12.2:1, which is still pushing it, but also still manageable with an automatic timing controller.
Your friend;
LAMAR

What kind of boost can E85 handle in a 2.0l 4 cylinder at 8.5:1
 
Seriously? You REALLY need to reconsider your math! :haha: 3.5 PSI? NO WAY!

So are you sayin that there is no way a 4 cylinder would be able to make 45 PSI?
Dear joshwho?;
No, I am saying that a COMPRESSOR can't make 45 PSI in a 2.5" tube. You are missing the point to forced induction.

It's NOT about pressure. It's all about VOLUME!

It's like this:
Whenever I build up a Chebby, I always use a BB punched out to 496 cubes. With an 8-71 blower and 8.5 to 1 CR, I will achieve 6 PSI of boost with the blower being under driven exactly 10%. I know the blower will put out 6 PSI of boost at 6,000 RPMs because that is what it's dyno'ed at.

If I am running at 6,000 RPMs and my boost gauge is showing between 3 and 4 lbs. of boost, I know that I am at maximum engine flow at that point and I'm starting scare the 700 ft. lb. of torque mark pretty good.

What this means that there are virtually very little restrictions in the flow circuit of the engine and that the fuel/air charge is entering each cylinder cleanly and then exiting the exhausts cleanly as well.


Therefore, if I reach 6K RPMs and my boost gauge is showing 6 PSI, then I know that I have a SEVERELY restricted flow and the boosted air/fuel is piling up in the intake instead of being sent into the engine's cylinders.

High pressure means restrictions and restrictions mean reduced performance. Things like air filters and exhausts that are too small all reduce performance because they reduce the flow characteristics of the fuel/air charge as it cycles it's way through the engine.

This is why we try to achieve as much FLOW as possible, which translates into VOLUME.

Remember Berounilli's Principle my friend. As pressure increases, volume decreases. Likewise, as volume increases, pressure decreases.

To sum up, if my BBC is showing 6 PSI of boost at 6K RPMs, what this means is that I am getting virtually no power increase at all (or extremely little) because of one or more flow restrictions somewhere in the system.

Likewise, if I am cranked up to 6K RPMs and the gauge is showing 0 boost, that would mean that I am getting maximum performance from the engine, yet this is virtually impossible to achieve, as there are ALWAYS restrictions.

In short, the maximum power increase that one can hope to achieve from a forced induction system is between 40% to 50%, due to flow restrictions and fuel quality.
Your friend;
LAMAR
 
:scratchhead: Well now I am confused as I know there are gasoline cars with some very high cr ratios that have either a turbo or sc on them.

Are some of these cars direct injected like a diesel?

My truck has ran my gauge out and it stops at 35psi:redneck:
 
If you would both read the turbo series by Garrett it would explain the difference in boost pressure according to displacement.

The expert page explains it the best, but all 3 parts are worth reading. And there are some engine for racing that are in excess of 1000 lbs of boost.

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/tech_center/turbo_tech103.html
Dear GaryTJ;
I understand that one atmosphere = 14.7 PSI, however boost is calculated on a vacuum/boost gauge at 0, which means that it does not take into consideration the sea level pressure of 14.7 PSI, therefore the ambient pressure is always calculated on the gauge as 0.

What the tech article is stating is airflow which is rated in pounds per minute, which is a lot different than boost pressure my friend.

The figure in the article *32.5* is NOT the output boost pressure of the compressor, rather it's the airflow in lbs. per min. That would calculate out to around 3.5 to 4 PSI of boost pressure at the intake manifold, which is about correct.

At sea level and 70 F, air has a mass density of 0.074887 per sq. ft. therefore 32.5 psia equals an airflow of 433 CFM, which is in fact almost identical to a Roots 6-71 small bore blower which flows 411 CFM.

At 6 PSI of boost, a 6-71 small bored blower will be flowing at about 32.2 PSIA, however we don't measure blower functionality by PSIA, we measure it by vacuum/pressure at the intake manifold below the blower. This in turn gives us a accurate reading of what state the engine is in at any given point in time.

A standard vac/boost gauge doesn't even go above 30 PSI my friend. It reads 30HG and either 20 or 30 PSI. The 20 PSI versions are somewhat more accurate and since the blower boost is below 6 PSI then that is usually the preferred choice.

http://www.jegs.com/i/Auto-Meter/105/3807/10002/-1?parentProductId=964942

Your friend;
LAMAR
 
Dear joshwho?;
No, I am saying that a COMPRESSOR can't make 45 PSI in a 2.5" tube. You are missing the point to forced induction.

It's NOT about pressure. It's all about VOLUME!

In short, the maximum power increase that one can hope to achieve from a forced induction system is between 40% to 50%, due to flow restrictions and fuel quality.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Trust me, I'm fully aware of volume over PSI, that's one of the reasons why 25psi from a big turbo makes more power than 25 psi from a small turbo.
 
Here are some VERY old pictures of the car I have FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE WITH. To **** with the nay-sayer(s) even more in did those numbers with a BENT Crower rod! My buddy owns the car and the day after I assembled the fresh engine his wife walked out and tried to fire it up... she walked out and kicked the key on and the boost referenced fuel pressure regulator diaphram ruptured and filled the tunnel-ram runner directly under the vacuume/boost port full of raw fuel and when she tried to fire it up it cranked and then stopped abruptly even with the gear reduction starter still trying.

http://www.extremeturbosystems.com/...e_info.html?osCsid=bogm8gdcra9opbj6hnug0gj401
 
Last edited:
Top