Liberty Trail Closures Meeting 3/26/2016

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If you search "Pine Swauk Enhancement" you will find more information. USFS is attempting to have this "public meeting" without advertising it. Please, if you can, show up at the Liberty Fire Hall. That building might hold 25 people so filling the whole town with off-road enthusiasts would be pretty cool.


 
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For anyone who can attend there are three meeting with the USFS:

11am to 1pm March 15th at Manastash Hall in the Fairgrounds in Eburg

-- 5-7 pm March 24th Cle Elum Centennial Center 719 E Third, Cle Elum

-- 1-3pm March 26th Liberty Fire Hall

Written comments can be mailed or faxed to Cle Elum Ranger Station, 803 W. Second St. Cle Elum, WA 98922

Faxed comments 509 674 3800

We've got 30 days to spread the news.
 
Hi all,

Has anyone determined whether the closure area includes any 4x4/ORV trails, or access to trails?

Thanks,

Alan
 
Who cares Alan...Whether or not it does, The point is to not close ANY access! :D :awesomework:
 
Just skimmed over the maps in the proposal...The short answer would be YES, it can very well affect the trails up that direction! (Some of the better trails are out that way!)

Getting this out to folks I know live in the area via social media...:awesomework:
 
This sucks! Favorite place of mine to wheel, all trails north of town and west of hwy are the best over there. Wish I didn't have to work those dates.:mad:
 
I know the ones through the work week are tough to justify for those that have to travel. But i know some of you guys can make the Saturday meeting

We gotta have a strong presence at this
 
Prob show up. They want to close access to my claim. I think I have the legal right to run the close sign for that. But it will suck for the shortcut between claims
 
It does suck that they throw these public meetings in the middle of the damn day...
:mad:
 
You know what bothers me the most about this kind of ****? An employee of the Forest Service has nothing without us. The entirety of their income and retirement come from us. The clothes on their backs and the vehicles they drive come out of our asses. The sum of their lives is one big handout. We are their employers and they, our *****es.

What do we get for our money? We live in constant terror of another closure. We listen to TV and radio ads running 'round the clock that WE pay for from the FS telling us to "get outdoors" and "unplug" as the same agency is closing everything down claiming they don't have enough money. We live in fear of getting belted with a thousand dollars or more worth of vehicle citations just for crossing a gravel road in the middle of nowhere to connect with the trail on the other side. We live with constant threat that fits the Merriam Webster definition of Terror or Terrorist to a T, and WE are paying to make it happen.

The vast majority of us work hard to be able to afford a dirt bike, quad, rock buggy, horse, whatever. We are the movers and shakers of the American economy. We earn our livings the honest way and as righteous people, we don't deny or disparage our neighbor's rights and liberties to do so.

A Forest Service employee is employed by and claims to represent a government of the People, by the People and FOR THE PEOPLE. Taxpayer dollars that could have educated our children, paved our roads, maintained our infrastructure, etc are diverted to fund every aspect of a FS employee's being. Their incomes, retirements, they even get a Jeep to joyride around the trails with on our dime. Everything they have comes from us and what do they do with it?

They turn our 4X4 trails into roads with their gravel burritos and dump waste excavator track all over their own personal landfill with our money. They sit at key entryways to the trail system from the popular campgrounds and shower us with citations based on frivolous and unconstitutional vehicle laws with our money, from a citation book WE payed for. They impose season closures of OUR lands and enforce those with OUR money. They hold meetings like this one so they can roll their eyes around while we voice our opposition, then do what they were going to do anyway with our money.

They constantly take and oppress us with our own money. They act and conduct themselves as if they are in some way our superiors...

With

Our

****ing

Money.

They put the physical condition of wood and dirt ahead of the lives of Americans. They literally have come to feel they have that right.

Remember this while you are at work today 'O fellow NW Wheelers. Think of that guy you see sitting at the end of the freeway offramp on your commute home. The guy (or girl) wearing the same clothes he has for weeks and holding the cardboard sign asking for money or anything. You see that person? Okay, get this.

1. Your tax dollars did not put him there.
2. Giving this person money or anything is optional.
3. This person cannot write you a ticket for lack of tire coverage.
4 This person cannot legally decide to close the freeway off ramp entirely to all traffic or even for six months out of the year.

By definition panhandlers are more valuable people to society than Forest Service employees. They are a much higher class of person than a Forest Service employee by a wide margin.

Take these thoughts with you to this meeting. The Employees of the USFS have done nothing to earn our respect. Any esteem they may have earned beforehand from say public or military service of any kind they voluntarily forfeited when they betrayed everything America stands for by joining the fight against freedom and Liberty (no pun intended).

:awesomework:

Ahh, that felt good.
 
MY money is not spent on orv tabs anymore.



I was just down 23rd by the Cyspis river. The river has EATEN the road. Its GONE.

This river bend has been creeping closer to the road for years. It would have made huge sense to drop some big ol boulders in before it reached the road. CHEAP, SIMPLE.

NOPE, they let it eat the road. Now they have a road closure caused by nature and NOT prevented by the FS. It will take them at least 3 years to get it fixed.


They knew the problem, knew the fix, and IGNORED it because it works with their agenda.

:mad:
 
Take these thoughts with you to this meeting. The Employees of the USFS have done nothing to earn our respect. Any esteem they may have earned beforehand from say public or military service of any kind they voluntarily forfeited when they betrayed everything America stands for by joining the fight against.....


View attachment 59365



......and Liberty (no pun intended)

First thing that came to mind... :beer:
 

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MY money is not spent on orv tabs anymore.



I was just down 23rd by the Cyspis river. The river has EATEN the road. Its GONE.

This river bend has been creeping closer to the road for years. It would have made huge sense to drop some big ol boulders in before it reached the road. CHEAP, SIMPLE.

NOPE, they let it eat the road. Now they have a road closure caused by nature and NOT prevented by the FS. It will take them at least 3 years to get it fixed.


They knew the problem, knew the fix, and IGNORED it because it works with their agenda.

:mad:

It's not the FS it's the tribes and the department of fish and wildlfe. They hold all of the cards when it comes to water
 
You know what bothers me the most about this kind of ****? An employee of the Forest Service has nothing without us. The entirety of their income and retirement come from us. The clothes on their backs and the vehicles they drive come out of our asses. The sum of their lives is one big handout. We are their employers and they, our *****es.

What do we get for our money? We live in constant terror of another closure. We listen to TV and radio ads running 'round the clock that WE pay for from the FS telling us to "get outdoors" and "unplug" as the same agency is closing everything down claiming they don't have enough money. We live in fear of getting belted with a thousand dollars or more worth of vehicle citations just for crossing a gravel road in the middle of nowhere to connect with the trail on the other side. We live with constant threat that fits the Merriam Webster definition of Terror or Terrorist to a T, and WE are paying to make it happen.

The vast majority of us work hard to be able to afford a dirt bike, quad, rock buggy, horse, whatever. We are the movers and shakers of the American economy. We earn our livings the honest way and as righteous people, we don't deny or disparage our neighbor's rights and liberties to do so.

A Forest Service employee is employed by and claims to represent a government of the People, by the People and FOR THE PEOPLE. Taxpayer dollars that could have educated our children, paved our roads, maintained our infrastructure, etc are diverted to fund every aspect of a FS employee's being. Their incomes, retirements, they even get a Jeep to joyride around the trails with on our dime. Everything they have comes from us and what do they do with it?

They turn our 4X4 trails into roads with their gravel burritos and dump waste excavator track all over their own personal landfill with our money. They sit at key entryways to the trail system from the popular campgrounds and shower us with citations based on frivolous and unconstitutional vehicle laws with our money, from a citation book WE payed for. They impose season closures of OUR lands and enforce those with OUR money. They hold meetings like this one so they can roll their eyes around while we voice our opposition, then do what they were going to do anyway with our money.

They constantly take and oppress us with our own money. They act and conduct themselves as if they are in some way our superiors...

With

Our

****ing

Money.

They put the physical condition of wood and dirt ahead of the lives of Americans. They literally have come to feel they have that right.

Remember this while you are at work today 'O fellow NW Wheelers. Think of that guy you see sitting at the end of the freeway offramp on your commute home. The guy (or girl) wearing the same clothes he has for weeks and holding the cardboard sign asking for money or anything. You see that person? Okay, get this.

1. Your tax dollars did not put him there.
2. Giving this person money or anything is optional.
3. This person cannot write you a ticket for lack of tire coverage.
4 This person cannot legally decide to close the freeway off ramp entirely to all traffic or even for six months out of the year.

By definition panhandlers are more valuable people to society than Forest Service employees. They are a much higher class of person than a Forest Service employee by a wide margin.

Take these thoughts with you to this meeting. The Employees of the USFS have done nothing to earn our respect. Any esteem they may have earned beforehand from say public or military service of any kind they voluntarily forfeited when they betrayed everything America stands for by joining the fight against freedom and Liberty (no pun intended).

:awesomework:

Ahh, that felt good.

Great rant but missed the target. The true enemy is Congress and the greeies that control them with their money.
 
You need to go for the puppet masters--not the puppets :awesomework:

Respectfully disagree. A puppet master is no threat without a puppet to do his bidding. At the conclusion of WW2 we tried and hanged hundreds of German and Japanese soldiers for war crimes. Thousands if you count the number given life sentences too. We didn't just blame Hitler. Congress can ask for whatever they want but without their puppets nothing gets done.

I can't imagine being sick enough to think the Nazi medical experiment torture doctor is a great guy just doing his job and that the only bad person here at all is the one guy in his Eagle's Nest calling the shots.

The greenies in Congress and the ultra leftwing USFS employees are one and the same to me. They are all equally culpable in my view.
 
They are planning to close over 300 miles of road on the west side of the cascades this year. Do to funding and not able to maintain the roads to the level of road that it is rated. From the best that I can figure it is about 8 million dollars to keep them open. Or declassify the road. One of the problems that they had is that the engineer that was on staff wasn't certified to do the evaluation on the roads to declassify them. That has been solved. He is now working else ware.

If you want to save the trails, then get involved. You will give up a lot for very little return. You will give up time at work, sleep and not to mention the cost of driving to meetings. Your wheeler will be parked so that you can focus on what is going on. You don't have time to play.

Pokey is right. *****ing at the local rangers and staff does nothing. They are handed a budget and have to work with in it. In there budget they have $1766 a mile to maintain level 5 and 4 roads. Level 3 is $1419. Level 2 (trails) is $633. It cost about $200 a mile to evaluate the roads every year. Now before you flip on that, the $15 hr employee cost about $100 hour. Now when it comes to roads and natural disaster. They don't have funding to " fix" the problem before it happens. BUT there is money to fix roads that are washed out. different budget column. Different funding source. Roads get fixed by the "*****-o-meter" the more people that *****, the better chance it will get fixed. If 100 people *****, good chance it will not get fixed. If 5000 people *****. It will get fixed

In the old days the FS had road crews that maintained the roads. cost were low because they were employees of the government. Now they contract everything out and have to pay prevailing wage on jobs. So rather that paying a crew to do the work of around a mil a year, they pay 10 to 15 mil just in wages to do the same job.

Bottom line is they need funding. Get them funding and the closures will stop.

OK now rant on and tell me I am full of ****.
 
I say let's hire some Nazi's. Or better yet elect Trump. However, be prepared for him to build a wall around the region then arrest you for complaining about it and then deport you to Canada.


I'm kidding about the Nazi part.
 
Respectfully disagree. A puppet master is no threat without a puppet to do his bidding. At the conclusion of WW2 we tried and hanged hundreds of German and Japanese soldiers for war crimes. Thousands if you count the number given life sentences too. We didn't just blame Hitler. Congress can ask for whatever they want but without their puppets nothing gets done.

I can't imagine being sick enough to think the Nazi medical experiment torture doctor is a great guy just doing his job and that the only bad person here at all is the one guy in his Eagle's Nest calling the shots.

The greenies in Congress and the ultra leftwing USFS employees are one and the same to me. They are all equally culpable in my view.

But how is that different than your job or my job? If we don't do what is expected of us we are gone. Ya gotta remember many of those folks are just there to feed there families and pay there own bills and have no "agenda" per say than making an income.

Still though mike if you want there policies changed you need to go farther up the food chain.

Sure many of us in this sport(and a few others) don't agree with what they do but the fact IMO still remains.
 
They are planning to close over 300 miles of road on the west side of the cascades this year. Do to funding and not able to maintain the roads to the level of road that it is rated. From the best that I can figure it is about 8 million dollars to keep them open. Or declassify the road. One of the problems that they had is that the engineer that was on staff wasn't certified to do the evaluation on the roads to declassify them. That has been solved. He is now working else ware.

If you want to save the trails, then get involved. You will give up a lot for very little return. You will give up time at work, sleep and not to mention the cost of driving to meetings. Your wheeler will be parked so that you can focus on what is going on. You don't have time to play.

Pokey is right. *****ing at the local rangers and staff does nothing. They are handed a budget and have to work with in it. In there budget they have $1766 a mile to maintain level 5 and 4 roads. Level 3 is $1419. Level 2 (trails) is $633. It cost about $200 a mile to evaluate the roads every year. Now before you flip on that, the $15 hr employee cost about $100 hour. Now when it comes to roads and natural disaster. They don't have funding to " fix" the problem before it happens. BUT there is money to fix roads that are washed out. different budget column. Different funding source. Roads get fixed by the "*****-o-meter" the more people that *****, the better chance it will get fixed. If 100 people *****, good chance it will not get fixed. If 5000 people *****. It will get fixed

In the old days the FS had road crews that maintained the roads. cost were low because they were employees of the government. Now they contract everything out and have to pay prevailing wage on jobs. So rather that paying a crew to do the work of around a mil a year, they pay 10 to 15 mil just in wages to do the same job.

Bottom line is they need funding. Get them funding and the closures will stop.

OK now rant on and tell me I am full of ****.

I see an easy solution...Hire the crew back, at around 1 million/yr...Put them to work, and save the 13+Million they are wasting on contracting... :D
 
I see an easy solution...Hire the crew back, at around 1 million/yr...Put them to work, and save the 13+Million they are wasting on contracting... :D

That is what I am working on. Should have been in the last meeting when I said that we need to fire from the top down.
 
My first comment...


To the Project Team:

This e-mail is to address roads in this project. Following is a brief take on how system roads should be looked at.


Level 1 Roads- Many of these roads need more review as the provide connectivity in the system or do, in fact, have high recreational value. I would urge they be considered for management as trail in many cases.

Level 2 Roads- These roads can, and often do, constitute the backbone of any OHV trail network, and provide non-street legal vehicles access to other system trails, and recreational use for larger 4x4 vehicles.

Level 3 Roads- These should be mixed vehicle use to provide connectivity to all portions of a trail system, and are also key to larger vehicles being able to access trails.


The above referenced road types comprise the heart of an adequate OHV/4x4 system, The Liberty area has been a prime recreation area for OHV for many years, and is a destination for many OHV users for weekend outings. It should be important to consider these users in your process, as well as other affects this project may have aside from OHV that will be covered later.

Regards,

Dave Walters
Tri Cities Peak Putters
Land Use Coordinator
Kennewick, WA
509-734-8694

PNW4WDA Member
WOHVA Member
BlueRibbon Coalition M
 
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