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Mountain Side Ownership.

zukimaster said:
If i ever brought a friend or a guest with me and they got hurt and wanted to sue, I would crack em in the head so hard they would forget all about it :****: I beleive this will work fine if Bob dont pull his hair out first! the park could have a few big rides a year and that should bring enough money in to keep it up! Just look how many was a gray rock during fall for all at 35.00 a pop and RBD!

Not trying to pick a fight here just being realistic.

Say your said friend/guest is back at camp, sitting in a chair, minding his own damn buisness when drunk owner #115 come flyin through camp and runs him over and kills him? You gonna tell his wife an unborn child who doens't have life insurance not to go after some money? The corporation will be sued, go bankrupt trying defend the case and wife will have a civil suit against everyone from the person who "cut the trail though camp" to the buddy of the drunk who gave him a beer earlier that day. The park is lost to the lawers, the corporation disolves yada yada yada. No "im responcible for my guest" waiver is going to save the park or members involved from a civil suit.

If Bob and laywers can prove this wrong I am in. $1000 in hand.
 
patooyee said:
I'm no lawyer, but I would think that if an owner assumes all liability for a particular guest, that guest can sue the corporation as much as she wants but she will only ever get anything out of the owner that assumed the liability for the park. Basically, when signing a guest in you are saying that you will pay all legal expenses and judgements that may result from that guest.

I'm no lawyer either but i personally don't believe that argument would hold up in court, it would be real interesting to see if there are established precedents from similar cases though. Even though a member/owner could declare that he is taking sole responsibility for his guest, in reality he is not a solitary entity or owner at all but a member of and representive of a group of owners.

Even if that did turn out to be a way to protect the corperation, who in the hell would want to take on sole responsibility of a guest? i belive that if something happened to that person then he or his dependents could sue you for everything you own, home, cars, investments etc.
 
I'm a newbie to this board (a lurker up until now) and really a newbie to off-roading, but I like the idea of being an owner in some land to ride on--so I love the idea.

However, I'm also an attorney (specializing in tax/business). I can tell you this is going to be very difficult. If for no other reason, how you are going about this you will likely have to have an attorney who does securities work make sure you are in compliance with the SEC rules and Alabama Blue Sky rules.

You get past that, and then you have to look at the tax consequences to everyone. It probably won't be much income to every member on a yearly basis, but someone is going to have to pay to have K-1s prepared each year for every member (that racks up accounting fees). You are also going to have to have a strong buy sell agreement, so that if someone goes into bankruptcy or takes a loan out and tries to secure the loan with the LLC interest a bankruptcy trustee/creditor doesn't become an owner of the land and sue to have the LLC dissolved and property sold to collect on their debt.

You also are going to have to maintain some form of insurance on the property itself. I do wonder what that will cost. You simply can't have land used like this and not have insurance---if for no other reason someone who is now an owner gets on the land and gets hurt.

The original idea that equal owners can't sue each other--while logical makes me a bit scared. If someone dies out there, there spouse/family members may be able to bring suit againt the other property owners---even if it is dismissed---you are going to spend a lot of money fighting it. Lawyers are expensive--even when you are right.

I like the idea, and really like the idea of owning something like this---but the actual set up would mean everything. I would recommend everyone who does buy in to buy their own general liablity policy--just in case.
 
Just let me know what i gotta do went for the first time this past weekend would love to b able to go back and do it again :driving: yes im IN!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Not really understanding all this........
If you can raise this much $$$$$$$$$$$$$ up front why not just get the needed Insurance policy to keep the park open as it is.

Take the cost of the policy,taxes and other odd and ends$$$$$ and divide it up and that is the cost per year for the members to ride.

As it grew and more members came in the cost per membership would go down.

The 1st year will be the hardest and most expensive.

This just sounds way to confusing and not going to help GROW the park when you have to be a owner to even ride for your first time.

How is someone going to know if they even like the park 1st??????

I don't see a way of legally bringing a guest...........that would be back to the way it is now as for lawsuits.
 
AMFJ said:
I'm a newbie to this board (a lurker up until now) and really a newbie to off-roading, but I like the idea of being an owner in some land to ride on--so I love the idea.

However, I'm also an attorney (specializing in tax/business). I can tell you this is going to be very difficult. If for no other reason, how you are going about this you will likely have to have an attorney who does securities work make sure you are in compliance with the SEC rules and Alabama Blue Sky rules.

You get past that, and then you have to look at the tax consequences to everyone. It probably won't be much income to every member on a yearly basis, but someone is going to have to pay to have K-1s prepared each year for every member (that racks up accounting fees). You are also going to have to have a strong buy sell agreement, so that if someone goes into bankruptcy or takes a loan out and tries to secure the loan with the LLC interest a bankruptcy trustee/creditor doesn't become an owner of the land and sue to have the LLC dissolved and property sold to collect on their debt.

You also are going to have to maintain some form of insurance on the property itself. I do wonder what that will cost. You simply can't have land used like this and not have insurance---if for no other reason someone who is now an owner gets on the land and gets hurt.

The original idea that equal owners can't sue each other--while logical makes me a bit scared. If someone dies out there, there spouse/family members may be able to bring suit againt the other property owners---even if it is dismissed---you are going to spend a lot of money fighting it. Lawyers are expensive--even when you are right.

I like the idea, and really like the idea of owning something like this---but the actual set up would mean everything. I would recommend everyone who does buy in to buy their own general liablity policy--just in case.

Welcome to HL.

Great post!
While I'd love to be able to do this......It's a VERY high risk investment. There's too many "sue happy" people in the world now. $1,000 investment only to be sued for everything I have. (along with the other "investors".) I enjoy MSORP....Just too great of a risk. Not to mention it'll be a logistical nightmare with taxes and other possibilities mentioned above
 
I'm in 100% for ownership as long as all the sketchy gray areas the above posts have mentioned ends up being covered and explained...especially the tax side of being a partial land owner, as I'm not too knowledgable of the impact that would bring at tax time.

pm sent
 
Lurker here!

I was hoping that the attorney would chime in on excacty what an LLC is. Unless I am mistaken it offers protection from "personal" liability. Therefore, all you could actually lose would be the $1000 investment or anything else you put into the park.. However, I guess someone would have to pay defense expenses if the LLC were to be sued.

Also,
Like AMFJ said, there are lots more to LLC's than you would think. If i'm not mistaken you have to have regular board meetings etc. I think you would need to figure out a way to create revenue to help maintain the park and pay other related expenses.

Anyone know how hunting clubs work?

AMFJ, chime in on what contributory negligence is. I think it's the dumba$$ law that prevents someone from sueing if they were being stupid.. But like everything else were law is concerned I am sure there are loopholes
 
HAH......yall know who BENEFITS and PROFITS when you start involving damn lawyers and insurance companies and all their bullshit ?

Nobody BUT the damn lawyers and insurance companies ::)


YEP....... damned CROOKED LAWYERS and INSURANCE COMPANIES have been ****IN OVER this ENTIRE nation and EVERYBODY in it since the beginning folks :flipgotcha:
 
zukiscott said:
HAH......yall know who BENEFITS and PROFITS when you start involving damn lawyers and insurance companies and all their bullshit ?

Nobody BUT the damn lawyers and insurance companies ::)


YEP....... damned CROOKED LAWYERS and INSURANCE COMPANIES have been ****IN OVER this ENTIRE nation and EVERYBODY in it since the beginning folks :flipgotcha:

I guess you had a bad run in with a lawyer? Some lawyers are good people... maybe just a few.. But don't give them all a bad rap. How would we all feel if people read your post and thought all wheelers were LOUD and Obnoxious like you!!!!!! :eek:
 
This is exactly why it put this in my original post........................ The next stage of this endeavor will not be cheap for me to set up, so before I proceed any deeper in I need to get an idea of how many people would be interested in purchasing an ownership. I have got to cover my cost in the land and legal fees in order to do this. I can not just give this land to a corporation to sell ownership rights. I do not need any money up front, but I do need to hear from everybody interested in this business partnership opportunity to see if we move forward or just keep it closed down.[size=10pt][size=10pt][size=10pt][size=10pt][/size][/size][/size][/size]


Bottom line, It may not be open to guest. You may need to be an owner to wheel. The lawyers and tax guys may find a way to kill this idea all together. They killed Tellico when everyone said they would not. I have already had two other lawyers email me offering to discuss this more, but I am not sure to what extent at this point. I have put a ton of money into this property to make it what it is and made it clear that I am looking to reduce my personal exposure for an uncontrollable accident. Seems to me like a lot of others see it the same way when the shoe is on the other foot.[size=10pt][size=10pt][size=10pt][size=10pt][/size][/size][/size][/size]
 
danb303 said:
I was hoping that the attorney would chime in on excacty what an LLC is. Unless I am mistaken it offers protection from "personal" liability. Therefore, all you could actually lose would be the $1000 investment or anything else you put into the park.. However, I guess someone would have to pay defense expenses if the LLC were to be sued.

i believe that's correct BUT if you was to accept personal responsibility and liability for a guest then you would be taking a huge risk.

as far as taxes go, the thing to do would be have it set up as a non-profit organization, show a loss every year. and there's no property tax in alabama as far as i know
 
Property tax is 600 yr. The $50.00 annual dues would cover that and still allow you to have an accountant do quarterly's and still have aover 5g to spend on maintenance.
 
danb303 said:
I guess you had a bad run in with a lawyer? Some lawyers are good people... maybe just a few.. But don't give them all a bad rap. How would we all feel if people read your post and thought all wheelers were LOUD and Obnoxious like you!!!!!! :eek:



DAMN.....that LIMP WRISTED post coulda came straight off the damn pirate board :****:

That is OK though.....

Because I take comfort in knowing that one day while you stand in a Chinese soup line.............

I will be laying somewhere getting my rifle PRYED OUT OF MY COLD DEAD HANDS.
 
zukiscott said:
DAMN.....that LIMP WRISTED post coulda came straight off the damn pirate board :****:

That is OK though.....

Because I take comfort in knowing that one day while you stand in a Chinese soup line.............

I will be laying somewhere getting my rifle PRYED OUT OF MY COLD DEAD HANDS.

It's just that I happen to know a good lawyer... my wife
No soup lines for me. I have my own little arsonal!!! LOL
I'll be there right beside you skully
 
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