Phantom 309
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Help Support Hardline Crawlers :
Naches west
- Thread starter pokey
- Start date
whatthe?
Well-Known Member
Has the PNW4WDA looked at other big, successful lobbying/work groups and find out what they did to grow their membership?
dirk
Well-Known Member
Getting people involved has proven to be a very difficult task...the recent WOHVA newsletter has an article that relates to this conversation.
Phantom 309
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I don't think you get to play that card. You can't ask a question and then chastise someone for their answer. I can't speak for Dirk but I'm not calling for change. The PNW can Change if they want to or not. It's your guys' association. I'm just giving you my opinion (which I really haven't done) to your question.
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Told you be careful what you ask for.
The PNW4WDA is dead. It died when elections stopped. How long did you serve unopposed? Then the next pres, then the next? What about Region 1 Director? Frank R. was the last freely elected Director of Region 1. Angie has been there how long? Region 4 Director has served for a long time. Nobody step's up to take over.
Do you really think these people are unopposed because their doing a good job? How about the other positions. Most of the people serving on the BOD have served for many,many years. Did you mention positions not filled. Why are these positions not being filled by members lining up to serve?
At the few meetings I attend I have stopped making suggestions to improve the association. At BOD meetings I have been told that I'm out of order and that the floor does not recognize me. At Region meetings I'm told by BOD members that although the idea may have merit, unless I am going to implement and manage the idea quit bringing ideas.
Only because of a misunderstanding with the person who sent in my membership am I still a member. That will probably change.
I see long time members dropping membership. I see their kids not joining. I see members still remaining not accepting change. Where is the future?
Wanna ask me again?
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The BOD explored that. But....................................
There is an extremely well organized org in this very state. To change to that form would be easy. Idea went nowhere.
Maybe its time some asked again.
So does Del Albright.
Del Albright, Landuse and Access
Hordes of new folks are getting into off-roading/OHV recreation according to national surveys (various), yet clubs and associations are not growing...in fact, many are shrinking it seems. Groups like clubs are where new ideas are born, trail stories and tips are shared, vehicle mod and build ideas are kicked around, and new friends are made. And for me, one of your guys in the trenches trying to save trails and our sports, without clubs and associations, land use is a dead end street. What on earth more can I do to convince folks to JOIN whatever makes sense to them; but JOIN. I hope you will join MY main national group, the BlueRibbon Coalition, and go on from there. What's the secret?
dirk
Well-Known Member
...and then you have that :eeek:
Phantom 309
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I didn't see that coming...
Jacob
Viewer Discretion Advised
I have something to say about this. I joined a Jeep Club and was in the PNW for that same amount of time. Jim personally sponsored me and guided through joining. I was happy, I was apart of something that could make a change.
I wanted to take the campground hosting for an area online to be more efficient, transparent, and available to better schedule. I have a background in IT with over 20 years. It was an easy task for me to do a little to no charge for the organization.
The person the represents that area is a great guy. Down to earth and will do anything for anyone. He didn't like the idea and wanted to continue with the old way. I could tell the idea of it really put people off. I dropped it. That is when I knew the club and organization was stuck in the 80s. The ways of doing business were good old boyish and just stale.
I have since left my club and the organization because it seemed to provide no benefit to me or what I like to do. Wheel and camp. The meetings just seemed like social events at best.
I loved every individual that i met and spent time with during this time and still consider them as close friends. Would do anything for any of them.
Jim, you have personally dropped everything you were doing to come to my house free of charge to help me with an electrical problem. You brought your work truck and trailer and drug me 30 miles home when my Jeep took a nap. Wouldn't take penny, not even for gas money. I love you man- this isn't personal. You bust your ass at this, we all know it.
But all of you together in a group is just stale for a guy like me. I wanted to wheel 2 weekends a month, build trails, camp out. But the PNW offers those things....yes they do. ONCE PER YEAR for each and you have to be a select member to be able to attend them or get tickets. I know I was invited, but I didn't want to be invited, I should't have to be as a member. I should have felt like an insider but I didn't. So I left.
Not personal Jim, just my experience and why I am no longer a member. It just didn't get me more involved in what I like to do, it just made it seem like a boring responsibility.
I love you man!
I wanted to take the campground hosting for an area online to be more efficient, transparent, and available to better schedule. I have a background in IT with over 20 years. It was an easy task for me to do a little to no charge for the organization.
The person the represents that area is a great guy. Down to earth and will do anything for anyone. He didn't like the idea and wanted to continue with the old way. I could tell the idea of it really put people off. I dropped it. That is when I knew the club and organization was stuck in the 80s. The ways of doing business were good old boyish and just stale.
I have since left my club and the organization because it seemed to provide no benefit to me or what I like to do. Wheel and camp. The meetings just seemed like social events at best.
I loved every individual that i met and spent time with during this time and still consider them as close friends. Would do anything for any of them.
Jim, you have personally dropped everything you were doing to come to my house free of charge to help me with an electrical problem. You brought your work truck and trailer and drug me 30 miles home when my Jeep took a nap. Wouldn't take penny, not even for gas money. I love you man- this isn't personal. You bust your ass at this, we all know it.
But all of you together in a group is just stale for a guy like me. I wanted to wheel 2 weekends a month, build trails, camp out. But the PNW offers those things....yes they do. ONCE PER YEAR for each and you have to be a select member to be able to attend them or get tickets. I know I was invited, but I didn't want to be invited, I should't have to be as a member. I should have felt like an insider but I didn't. So I left.
Not personal Jim, just my experience and why I am no longer a member. It just didn't get me more involved in what I like to do, it just made it seem like a boring responsibility.
I love you man!
Don't take it personally Jacob but how would you know. before you quit the hombres you hadn't attended a meeting in over a year so how would you know what we were doing. not once do I remember seeing you at the multiple workpartys we had for copper city (club project) nor did I see you at region meetings when we plan work parties . Responsibility is boring but its whats need to keep trails open.
This one gets me the best :haha:
"I have since left my club and the organization because it seemed to provide no benefit to me or what I like to do. Wheel and camp. The meetings just seemed like social events at best"
How do you think you have places to wheel or camp without the work those good old boys do ? we are a social group that's why we have a club and why we take care of each other without question.
sure spit it up I mean out :redneck:
I did
Jacob
Viewer Discretion Advised
This is a fruitless conversation because you are taking everything personal. I said how I feel and if you don't see my message then we can just end this here. I'm done anyways, so carry your torch as long as you want. I'm gonna be wheeling.
How am I taking it personally ? I just stated the facts, People come and go in life but when someone joins the "club" they start becoming family very sorry that you decided to leave and get out of the sport as well but its understood and you will be missed. However I was just stating the facts.
If you aren't taking it personally, you absolutely should. You are seen as the voice of the PNW4WDA on the internet and you are, by your own admission, a terrible communicator (paraphrasing, but you said it in THIS thread). If you have something to say, you should get someone versed in positive, motivating communication to do it for you.
Any association has to have a compelling use case to attract members. The "voice" of the PNW4WDA has been broken for at least 15 years. You can't attract new members unless you change the org first. Open, transparent communication along with positive PR highlighting the fellowship of our sport and how the organization will benefit the individual's pursuit of their hobby. All we ever hear is "We need members to benefit the PNW. . ." The message is completely backwards. The PNW is supposed to be there to benefit its members.
So, shut up. Do a deep dive into the Mission, Vision, and Values of the org. Find a "voice" that is compelling to new members and openly/honestly communicate that without being a bull in a china shop. Flip the script and come into 2015.
On topic, while we all should "police our own", the fastest way to alienate people is to make them afraid. Responsible users will purposely avoid you and your organization. Highlight the positive inside the group, internalize the negative, and take the fight where it belongs.
On the tangent topic: The seasonal closure certainly has something to do with resource damage and it is easy for the FS to hang their hat on that, but the reality is that a HUGE part of the closure has to do with the way that people behave themselves in camp on that particular weekend. "People", many of them not even wheelers, would show up in droves to simply party. That created a massive law enforcement issue. It was lawless. for that reason, I supported the closure from day 1. Nothing to do with wheeling or even wheelers. . .it was all about what happened off the trail. If you don't agree, you probably never saw it.
From out of nowhere,
OG
Former PNW4WDA Member
Location: Oh, I'm wheelin'. Tip to Tail, Coast to Coast. Mojave to Rimrock. Juniper to Imogene and everywhere in between.
Any association has to have a compelling use case to attract members. The "voice" of the PNW4WDA has been broken for at least 15 years. You can't attract new members unless you change the org first. Open, transparent communication along with positive PR highlighting the fellowship of our sport and how the organization will benefit the individual's pursuit of their hobby. All we ever hear is "We need members to benefit the PNW. . ." The message is completely backwards. The PNW is supposed to be there to benefit its members.
So, shut up. Do a deep dive into the Mission, Vision, and Values of the org. Find a "voice" that is compelling to new members and openly/honestly communicate that without being a bull in a china shop. Flip the script and come into 2015.
On topic, while we all should "police our own", the fastest way to alienate people is to make them afraid. Responsible users will purposely avoid you and your organization. Highlight the positive inside the group, internalize the negative, and take the fight where it belongs.
On the tangent topic: The seasonal closure certainly has something to do with resource damage and it is easy for the FS to hang their hat on that, but the reality is that a HUGE part of the closure has to do with the way that people behave themselves in camp on that particular weekend. "People", many of them not even wheelers, would show up in droves to simply party. That created a massive law enforcement issue. It was lawless. for that reason, I supported the closure from day 1. Nothing to do with wheeling or even wheelers. . .it was all about what happened off the trail. If you don't agree, you probably never saw it.
From out of nowhere,
OG
Former PNW4WDA Member
Location: Oh, I'm wheelin'. Tip to Tail, Coast to Coast. Mojave to Rimrock. Juniper to Imogene and everywhere in between.
Phantom 309
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Mar 21, 2008
- Messages
- 314
I'm sorry that you're the one standing here facing this criticism of your Association, but remember, you asked. Even though I haven't agreed, I appreciate your answers.
Dirk and Jacob hit the nails on the head. The PNW is boring and uninviting to today's wheelers. Weather or not it's correct (I believe it is) the perception is that if you don't drive a jeep on 33's, then the PNW doesn't want you on the trails anyway. Buggies, yotas, crawlers, big tires need not apply. With very few exceptions, I have seen those groups treated poorly time and time again. Either through lectures, cold shoulders or guilty until proven innocent scenarios. The PNW needs to decide if they are really a 4 Wheel Drive Association or just a Jeep Association. Why would these kids going to join a group that doesn't welcome them?
Jacob is right....the PNW is booooooring. I know that fighting the good fight is alot of "nose to the grindstone," boring work but why present it that way? The PNW is so stuck on their old ways that they have completely forgotten that people actually want to get out and use the land they have been fighting for! So much so that myself and many others feel like they almost want us to apologize for our hobby, to keep it in the dark, to pretend like we don't actually do it......well the new generation is calling bullshit!! They're proud of what they do, what they build, and what they can accomplish. They're ready to fight, but not in the "head in the sand" "from the shadows" approach that they feel the PNW does. This approach will have some big bumps and bruises along the way, but with the proper guidance it will work. It's up to groups like the PNW or WOHVA (which I think is already doing this) to embrace this energy and work with it, not fight against it. With the leadership of some elder independents, they are already getting more involved, dragging their own equipment, tools and sweat into the woods alongside the Forest Service, DNR or whoever, to accomplish what no other group has been able to do. WTF and Chad Atkins of the Gleed Boyz are prime examples of this.
The PNW is to busy coming up with reasons not to change and fighting their own user groups to realize that the world is passing them by. They still think that everyone looks up to them and wants to join. They think that people are lucky to join them. Maybe that was the public's attitude 20 years ago, but not now. Now that attitude just causes most people to close their ears and rebel against them. The people in our hobby "might" still need the PNW, but the PNW needs them even more in order to survive.
Look what happened at the Moonshiner's Race this last weekend (I do see the irony there with Angie being a Moonshiner and the PNW President, and for the record, I like Angie.)They realized that in order to build an event and preserve their race that they needed new blood. They reached out both locally and heavily on social media to all user groups. They focused on people that were unfamiliar with racing to bring them in both as spectators and participants. They made minor adjustments to rules to make them applicable to the 20th century. They went directly to the groups of wheelers that have traditionally been shunned by the PNW and do you know what happened? They tripled the size of the event from last year! There were more NEW street/trail and youth entries than I've ever seen! There is a "buzz" over here about PNW Racing now. New people are telling their friends about it, and planning new builds for next year! They are getting involved!!
That same kind of attitude and game plan can be applied to the rest of the PNW and it will work. BUT the group as a whole has to have it. Unfortunately the few in the PNW that feel this way are powerless against the majority that are still behind the times.
Once again, thank you Pokey for for putting yourself out there and joining in this conversation.
Dirk and Jacob hit the nails on the head. The PNW is boring and uninviting to today's wheelers. Weather or not it's correct (I believe it is) the perception is that if you don't drive a jeep on 33's, then the PNW doesn't want you on the trails anyway. Buggies, yotas, crawlers, big tires need not apply. With very few exceptions, I have seen those groups treated poorly time and time again. Either through lectures, cold shoulders or guilty until proven innocent scenarios. The PNW needs to decide if they are really a 4 Wheel Drive Association or just a Jeep Association. Why would these kids going to join a group that doesn't welcome them?
Jacob is right....the PNW is booooooring. I know that fighting the good fight is alot of "nose to the grindstone," boring work but why present it that way? The PNW is so stuck on their old ways that they have completely forgotten that people actually want to get out and use the land they have been fighting for! So much so that myself and many others feel like they almost want us to apologize for our hobby, to keep it in the dark, to pretend like we don't actually do it......well the new generation is calling bullshit!! They're proud of what they do, what they build, and what they can accomplish. They're ready to fight, but not in the "head in the sand" "from the shadows" approach that they feel the PNW does. This approach will have some big bumps and bruises along the way, but with the proper guidance it will work. It's up to groups like the PNW or WOHVA (which I think is already doing this) to embrace this energy and work with it, not fight against it. With the leadership of some elder independents, they are already getting more involved, dragging their own equipment, tools and sweat into the woods alongside the Forest Service, DNR or whoever, to accomplish what no other group has been able to do. WTF and Chad Atkins of the Gleed Boyz are prime examples of this.
The PNW is to busy coming up with reasons not to change and fighting their own user groups to realize that the world is passing them by. They still think that everyone looks up to them and wants to join. They think that people are lucky to join them. Maybe that was the public's attitude 20 years ago, but not now. Now that attitude just causes most people to close their ears and rebel against them. The people in our hobby "might" still need the PNW, but the PNW needs them even more in order to survive.
Look what happened at the Moonshiner's Race this last weekend (I do see the irony there with Angie being a Moonshiner and the PNW President, and for the record, I like Angie.)They realized that in order to build an event and preserve their race that they needed new blood. They reached out both locally and heavily on social media to all user groups. They focused on people that were unfamiliar with racing to bring them in both as spectators and participants. They made minor adjustments to rules to make them applicable to the 20th century. They went directly to the groups of wheelers that have traditionally been shunned by the PNW and do you know what happened? They tripled the size of the event from last year! There were more NEW street/trail and youth entries than I've ever seen! There is a "buzz" over here about PNW Racing now. New people are telling their friends about it, and planning new builds for next year! They are getting involved!!
That same kind of attitude and game plan can be applied to the rest of the PNW and it will work. BUT the group as a whole has to have it. Unfortunately the few in the PNW that feel this way are powerless against the majority that are still behind the times.
Once again, thank you Pokey for for putting yourself out there and joining in this conversation.
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Phantom 309
Well-Known Member
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Holy crap! From here on out Old Green is officially writing all my posts for me!
Well said!I thought you said you were a member ? so shouldn't it be "our" association ? Have you ever been to one of our meetings maybe a region meeting or better yet a PNW4WDA meeting to actually see and hear what we discuss ? Its always rang true that the myth of small tires is spread by people who don't participate and really have no idea about who or what we are or do and this perception is spread by those same people. We are open to all users and several of our clubs fit into the "big tire" crowd. We advocate trails for everyone with appropriate use. This myth of the good old boys(PNW4WDA) is just that a myth. Yes there are lots of old farts out there that feel the way you describe but so what ? there are lots of people that feel that the 33" crowd doesn't belong as well. So What. We need to all learn to accept each other and use our trails in an appropriate manner to keep them open. Have you been to any of our other events ? you will find that the same attitude that the moonshiners present is the same at all of our events. The moonshiners just happen to a little more money (swapmeet) to advertise and put on a great event than most clubs. Try attending other events and you will see what I mean. Remember that its a two way street "you" have to learn to accept us just as "we" need to do the same. power in numbers and all that.
I'm just a redneck with a computer. The perception that I am the voice of the PNW4WDA is just that. I don't even hold a office at that level anymore. as to the bull in a china shop most of the time I am pushed into that position by the detractors that love to spread their lies and inability to understand the truth on here. I happen to stand for something that I believe in and quite honestly am ashamed that our other members on here don't seem to care when their association get drug thru the mud and blatantly lied about. Anybody that wants to use me and my attitude as an excuse to not support the one large group that supports them is the one burying their head in the sand.
