RCV Big Bells in 05+ F250/350 outers

[Bebop]

This thread is about the Ford Dana 60 SuperDuty front axles. I'm only interested in the outers, meaning from the C's, knuckles, BJs, UBs, brakes etc...

Quick intro for those who aren't very familiar with the axles :
There are 4 main versions of these axles with small differences from year to year.

- 99-04 F250/350, which had small "normal sized" dana60 outers with somewhat weak Unit Bearings and got a bad rep for a bit
- 99-04 F450/550, which have almost no aftermarket support
- 05+ F250/350 that have big UBs and C's and Knuckles that fit the 1550 and rockwell joint shafts.
- 05+ F450/550 that have massive C's and Knuckles and that will fit the RCV big bells, the 1550 u joints and the rockwell joints no problem.

After putting my hands on quite a few of these axles, I've always been curious about the possibility of running the RCV big bells in the F250/350 outers. I've heard plenty of times it could be done no problem, but so far, I didn't see any picture or anyone that has been able to run the big CVs in these outers. Lot's of talk, no proof.

My goal is to find one (or more) way(s) to run these bad ass CVs for a lower cost than going the full custom route (Reid Super KP / Crane Magnum / Ouverson outers).

Why use these 05+ F250/350 ?

Because :

- They're bigger than the 99-04 versions
- The UBs are massive and RCV makes a Big Bell that supposedly "fits"
- They are plentiful and cheap
- They have easy brake options, whereas the F450/550 outers brake situation hasn't been solved yet and they require pinion brakes (I don't want these).
- I also happen to have plenty of F250/350 axles on hand. So I didn't mind tearing into one.

Thanks to some great people, this weekend I was able to test the fitment of a big bell RCV in the 05+ F250/350 outers.

This is a copy of what I posted on Pirate this morning, with a little more details.

What I can confirm is that they fit without much mods needed. IE the lower BJ stem had to be cut/ground off some to fit the orange dome but that was it. The bell rotates and turns without any issues.

The problem is installing it.
1) The bell doesn't fit through the UB bore in the knuckle, it hits a lip that is machined in there.
2) With an axle shaft connected, there is no way to install/remove the knuckle after the shaft and bell are slid in the axle. All these pictures down there have been taken without an axle shaft installed for this reason.

I removed the upper BJ to simulate what would happen if a BJ eliminator kit was installed on this knuckle. Even though it helps, there is still about 1/2'' of stub shaft that doesn't fit through the knuckle. I was supposed to have the kit from Nick Barna installed but some shipping issues prevented this to happen.

After talking with Nick (great guy BTW), we came up with a list of mods to do to his upper BJ eliminator kit in order to work with the bell. We also talked about a lower BJ to KP style conversion in order to remove the whole knuckle in one shot and give access to the bell.

I really want to thank RCV for sending me a bell and dome free of charge for testing purposes. Love these guys, the customer service is second to none.

I also want to thank Nick Barna for spending quite a bit of time exchanging ideas and pictures with me. He's a wheeler himself and is definitely interested in improving his product and listening to good inputs. He just upgraded to a CNC lathe in order to bang some more of his BJ kits out and I'm definitely in the testing batch for his lower kit when it comes out.

I strongly believe there is a way to make a RCV big bell work in these axles, but with what's available on the market at the moment, it's a no-go. I'm glad I tested before ordering.

Here are some pics. LMK if I can help or you have any questions.

THINGS TO NOTE :

I've been extremely happy with the feedback I got from the community on pirate.

One of the ideas that was pointed out was to machine the lip in the knuckle out in order to slide the bell though. I think I have found someone willing to do the machine work so we can try it soon. Not my favorite method to get the bell in but I want to know if it works.

I'll keep you guys posted.

 

[Bebop]

Here is the BJ eliminator kit from Nick Barna :

It's $275 shipped and doesn't require any machining. But does require welding.
He is working on a version without the nut, with a threaded insert, that would clear the RCV big bell once installed.

 

[CHASMAN9]

Great job Enzo, thanks.




ADMINISTRATOR

 

[kmcminn]

Maybe Nick Barna can get his new kit knocked out pretty quick.

 

[onetoncrawler]

good info BillaVista..... I mean Enzo

 

[Bebop]

Thank you guys !

I'll keep updating this thread when I've got new stuff. Sooner than later hopefully.

Maybe Nick Barna can get his new kit knocked out pretty quick.

Yall need to call him and let him know there is a demand for the product. Will help for sure.

 

[rugger99]

Thanks for sharing this information....nicely done sir.

 

[jeeptj99]

So on a Dana 44 w/ Chevy or Dodge knuckles you have to slide inner shaft in then assemble the bell inside the knuckle, do you have to do this on these as well? Does the stub come off the bell? I've never messed with SD stuff but you know I plan on doing a swap sometime so this is good info. Thanks Frenchie.

 

[Bebop]

So on a Dana 44 w/ Chevy or Dodge knuckles you have to slide inner shaft in then assemble the bell inside the knuckle, do you have to do this on these as well? Does the stub come off the bell? I've never messed with SD stuff but you know I plan on doing a swap sometime so this is good info. Thanks Frenchie.

Stub and bell is one part. Doesn't separate.

This is not the standard 60 size RCV bell. they already have a kit, # CVJ60-FORD4 or CVJ60M-FORD4 that will fit the stock 05+ 250/350 knuckles with a standard sized 60 CV which will be perfect for most of the people. Even with big tires and a big engine, the 300M CV in the 60 size version is very strong. It's in fact stronger than the dana 60 ring and pinion. For your swap that should be all you want. No need to install a big bell.

This Big Bell I'm trying to fit is for the bouncers and crazy high HP guys, the rear steer, bouncing of the rev limiter driving style...

Right now there is no way to install these in an 05+ 250/350 SD60. But I probably will have some good news in a few.

Also exchanging with RCV, maybe they'll come up with a plug and play version for the 250/350 knuckle

 

[redneckengineered]

Here are my questions.

First, why not just use the 450/550 knuckles if you know you want to run the big bell? They are easily obtainable at the local yards and reasonably priced.

2nd, if you already have a set of 250/350 and want to use them, wouldn't it be easier to just open up the bore in the 250/350 knuckle and grind the lower BJ stud and rock out vs doing the whole BJ eliminator kit?

 

[Bebop]

First, why not just use the 450/550 knuckles if you know you want to run the big bell? They are easily obtainable at the local yards and reasonably priced.

To go 8 lugs on the F450/550 outer you have to swap the UB's with a set from a 250/350. When you do that, the stock 450/550 brakes don't fit anymore.
The only people I know running the F450/550 outers run pinion brakes because of that.
And I don't want to run pinion brakes.

2nd, if you already have a set of 250/350 and want to use them, wouldn't it be easier to just open up the bore in the 250/350 knuckle and grind the lower BJ stud and rock out vs doing the whole BJ eliminator kit?

Yes and no.

Yes because hopefully it works and the bell fits. But this hasn't been verified yet. I should be able to confirm this week soon.

The problems I see are:
- It requires machining
- Does the bore has to be open so much to fit the bell that it doesn't center the UB properly anymore ???
- The upper BJ eliminators are needed anyway as the stock upper BJs are weak and bent. They are installed without any machining, so anyone could install them.
- Popping the orange dome on and off, in position, in the knuckle is going to be a major pita. I'd rather remove 2 bolts (upper and lower axis) and just remove the knuckle in one shot. You could even leave the UB and brakes on the knuckle and just remove the whole deal in 1 shot to access the shafts.

 

[yankster]

THINGS TO NOTE :

I've been extremely happy with the feedback I got from the community on pirate.

This may be the most impressive part of this post!

 

[jeeptj99]

So slight derail, on something like my jeep with say 40's or 39's would RCV's be needed? Even though I bounce it and beat it?

 

[Bebop]

So slight derail, on something like my jeep with say 40's or 39's would RCV's be needed? Even though I bounce it and beat it?

Can't go wrong with the best shafts on the market 8)

As of right now, for the 05+ there is only 2 companies making 35sp outer stubs that I know of, Branik and RCV. Branik doesn't have any warranty and that is enough for me to choose RCV.

 

[TBItoy]

- Does the bore has to be open so much to fit the bell that it doesn't center the UB properly anymore ???

No, the unit bearing pilot bore is the largest diameter. The only part that has to be machined out is the where the stock knuckle/vacuum seal sits.

Unless maybe you want to bore it out big enough for the orange boot to slide through the knuckle??

And the only reason you'd need to get to the shafts is if you blow up the diff or gears.
The shaft isn't going to be a failure point.

So slight derail, on something like my jeep with say 40's or 39's would RCV's be needed? Even though I bounce it and beat it?

The ~$3500-$4000 "Big Bells"... No.
The standard "Dana 60" size... Maybe

a $300 set of stock 35 spline 1550 u-joint shafts would probably serve you well.


People ran Dana 60s for 2 decades with Spicer or Yukon 35 spline stub shafts and Spicer 806x joints, on 42s and 44s with 350-400hp engines and didnt' snap them like twigs.

 

[kmcminn]

The problems I see are:

- The upper BJ eliminators are needed anyway as the stock upper BJs are weak and bent. They are installed without any machining, so anyone could install them.

How many ball joints have you seen bent?

 

[kmcminn]

- Does the bore has to be open so much to fit the bell that it doesn't center the UB properly anymore ???


[/quote

No, the unit bearing pilot bore is the largest diameter. The only part that has to be machined out is the where the stock knuckle/vacuum seal sits.

Unless maybe you want to bore it out big enough for the orange boot to slide through the knuckle??

And the only reason you'd need to get to the shafts is if you blow up the diff or gears.
The shaft isn't going to be a failure point.

I dont think there is enough material there to be able to bore the inside diameter.

 

[TBItoy]

I dont think there is enough material there to be able to bore the inside diameter.

there isn't (for the boot)

 

[Bebop]

No, the unit bearing pilot bore is the largest diameter. The only part that has to be machined out is the where the stock knuckle/vacuum seal sits.

That's what I think, but I haven't seen it done yet.

Unless maybe you want to bore it out big enough for the orange boot to slide through the knuckle??

No way that will work, too much meat to remove.

And the only reason you'd need to get to the shafts is if you blow up the diff or gears.
The shaft isn't going to be a failure point.

Ugh... Maintenance and ease of access is a pretty big deal...

$300 set of stock 35 spline 1550 u-joint shafts would probably serve you well.

Agreed

People ran Dana 60s for 2 decades with Spicer or Yukon 35 spline stub shafts and Spicer 806x joints, on 42s and 44s with 350-400hp engines and didnt' snap them like twigs.

People didn't drive like they do now with sticky tires I'd say.

How many ball joints have you seen bent?

Over 10.
Matter of a fact the axle I tested the bells in had one side that was bent.
Jake's upper BJ's in Riot buggy had to be changed very often because of that.

 

[TBItoy]

Yeah big stickies and cheap EFI horsepower have been game changers for sure!



I want to see it done also.

I was right were you are now a few years ago, got all the measurements, test fitting (with a fake shaft) but I didn't have the $ to spend on the huge RCV shafts, so I ended up leaving the knuckles alone and buying a set of 1550 shafts (that are still sitting on the shelf too).

By all measurements, it'll work. and it'll suck to install the boot. I've heard that boiling the boot then installing it hot makes it much easier.