Whats your opinion?

[pokey]

The greater Washington trails system was originally built by guys running WW2 style Jeeps. They were built LOOOONG before any of us were using them. These trails were built and designed BEFORE the advent of the 4x4 fullsize (which came out circa 60s) and you NEVER saw any fullsizes on the trails up until the end of the 90s. Washington trail system is a CJ, early Bronco, early Landcruiser, early Patrol, trail width. These trails were designed for 29 to 31 inch tall tires.

Now does this mean we should STOP from modernizing and upgrading to keep with the times?

Tough to say. I'd like to keep it status quo. But only because I fit into the status quo.

I agree Tony. If the fullsize guys want a place to play then they need to do the work as we do to make that happen. That means getting involved at the political level as well as showing up at work partys. Theres plenty of trails for everyone but why should a small group have to do most of the work to ensure the trails stick around for everyone?

 

[TreeClimber]

I agree Tony. If the fullsize guys want a place to play then they need to do the work as we do to make that happen. That means getting involved at the political level as well as showing up at work partys. Theres plenty of trails for everyone but why should a small group have to do most of the work to ensure the trails stick around for everyone?

Yup.

But have you ever noticed that a guy with a CJ (type) will have thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours in upgrades. It's their passion. Yet most of the full sizes I've seen are simply stock rigs with the bed removed and bashed in fenders. You buy a $500 rig, slap on another $500 in tires and Voila, you're wheelin. I'd wonder if it's a 'Passion' or simply a short term 'foray' into fun. And the work party participating, politically active, PNW joining participants don't fit into this group.

 

[Big_MARK]

....I'd wonder if it's a 'Passion' or simply a short term 'foray' into fun.....

BINGO


I for one enjoy seeing full size rigs on the trail, when they aren't destroying anything and are being piloted by a skillful driver.

Asshats hammering down and smashing the rigs up on trees, breaking glass and **** like that suck.

 

[Outback]

wheres bernes when you need him on subjects like this.......


i have plenty of patience for waiting for these over sized rigs to make it through a trail. im not saying that its right for them to do damage on a trail but ive also seen buggies cause just as much damage as a full size. hell ive seen regular jeeps cause as much damage.

IIRC B's in LVNV.

This is a sore spot with me.
Long before there was even a mailing list I was making a good living building Jeeps TLC's & EB's for other people; way old school stuff by today’s standards. Ran a series of Jeeps all over the PNW, though mostly in OR. Eventually I just burned out on the whole Jeep deal; they are not the be-all and end-all of wheeling rigs. Then again none of the SWB rigs are, most of the time, in-fact they are rather often the most destructive of OR toys precisely because of their size!
Because my family loves wheeling, the Jeep's just got too freeking small. Enter my first fullsize, a 79 Bronco. In the mid 80's I had modified the suspension to the point of having some serious (for the day) articulation. Really people hadn't started doing that back then unless you were running Baja. The way that truck was set up I could and often did just walk through obstacles that well built Heeps, Toyz, etc, had serious trouble with! Not a slam to anyone because I often would embarrass rigs that I'd built!
I basically left this sport more then ten years ago for many reasons, business being one of them; though I have not long been without a 4x4 during that time.

Having just bashed SWB rigs… I agree fully that IF the trail is too narrow then the Fullsize has no business on that trail, period!
You’se all in WA had the good fortune to have pioneers in getting trails designated and maintained. If only OR could have been so blessed, some tried but… In OR many of the “trails†were logging or other access roads originally. Restricting that kind of trail to a Heep width when it was cut by a D8 is politically motivated elitism, or as I refer to it:
“A Jeep Thing.â€

My current toy is a fullsize BB powered POS and I have not unlocked the hubs in more then 6 months because I need 4WD regularly. It is a brute of a leaf-sprung tool and I use it as such. It flat sucks on the trail most of the time (unless it has a load) and so doesn’t get wheeled much. That and braking it skidding logs here on the place is one thing, braking it ‘playing’ on the trail is quite another!
Consequently I have been rounding up the parts to build a smaller trail toy. Not as many might suspect for a narrower rig, rather lighter and therefore more economical. I had planned on running fullsize axles because in 30+years of experience I have found that wider is better (A Pontiac thing?).
Recently I have learned that I will not be doing that because the USFS is/has enacting Track Width regulations. My Highboy on your basic 35â€BFG-Muds is 0.500 too wide. Needless to say I will be narrowing some axles for the new trail toy! To me the interesting thing is that there has been a national trend to building wider. 30-years ago you virtually never saw a CJ or Yod on full size running gear. Today it is rather common. Yet at the same time there is a rather perceptible push to narrow the trails…
B’s ride is a full size “thingâ€. I doubt that there are more then a handful of people or rigs that can hang with it/him comfortably, I sure as hell can’t at the moment. Further I’ll bet that there are few places that it is “Too Wide†unless the trail really was a dirt bike trail that some damn jeepers F’dUp:flipoff:
Trail width really is a prickly subject.
The bikers don’t want the ATV’s and the ATV’rz don’t want the Jeeperz, and the Jeeperz don’t want the Fullsize…
Oh and the Snow Machines don’t want any of em!

I just hope that the conflict does not in the end F’ing it up for everybody… Though right now (at least locally) it looks like it will be the ATV users that are going to screw it up for everyone!

Hubz-in
Chris

 

[LWB Samurai Joe]

Like it or not, (IMO) there should be a "trail edicate" out there. That said, I think that we have a responsibility not to hit and damage trees if we dont have to. Does it happen, sure does it have to happen no. If you want to work overtime at getting a trail closed tear it up. That includes the trees. I guess Im saying that comon sense should dictate whether you take a full size rig on certain trails. Im against it. Ive seen (Im sure we all have) the damage they can do.

 

[archer1965]

You 2 have no idea who yer talking to.

The personal rancor reflected in that comment I dont intend to dignify with comment. But I would like to address your general attitude of hopeless negativism. :flipoff: :haha:

 

[TreeClimber]

Bunk is correct, in that you don't have a clue whom Mauler is. And Mauler's assertation is/was correct. He accurately described how those trails were made. He accurately described what truely does/has happened in the widening of the trails.

Just because you feel it SHOULDN'T be happening, doesn't mean it ISN'T

Just because it IS HAPPENING, doesn't mean I want it too, either.

Your 'Wrong Answer', is a reflection of an opinion. And as such, I respect your thought. But reality is far different.

2cents

Respectfully,

TreeClimber

 

[archer1965]

Bunk is correct, in that you don't have a clue whom Mauler is.
Your 'Wrong Answer', is a reflection of an opinion. And as such, I respect your thought. But reality is far different.

2cents

Respectfully,

TreeClimber

Never said wrong answer, you must be posting to the other of "2". Is Mauler someone I should have ultimate respect for and never question anything he posts?
Not trying to offend anyone, I just don't appreciate being talked down to.

 

[Nuzzy]

Is Mauler someone I should have ultimate respect for and never question anything he posts?

He has a little knowledge in the wheelin scene and is one of the good guys for our sport. That's all.

 

[TreeClimber]

Is Mauler someone I should have ultimate respect for and never question anything he posts?

All of us should be questioned. That's what gives these forums a reason to exist. It opens the avenues of thought.

Not trying to offend anyone, I just don't appreciate being talked down to.

But if I recall correctly, Maulers' post had nothing 'disrespectful' in it, your post however was :flipoff: towards his. If anyone was talking down it was your post. That said, you too are correct in your "that's how things get closed", in that, it is indeed how things get closed.

That's the beauty of Porter's original question posed. How is it that most of the trails were made by one group, enlarged by another, then closed by the exact same activities that originated them.

TreeClimber

 

[TreeClimber]

And the question I'd most question JeepMauler about is.....


















what's that bar code for?

 

[archer1965]

But if I recall correctly, Maulers' post had nothing 'disrespectful' in it, your post however was :flipoff: towards his. If anyone was talking down it was your post.
TreeClimber

Bunks post was the one I was referring to.

That's the beauty of Porter's original question posed. How is it that most of the trails were made by one group, enlarged by another, then closed by the exact same activities that originated them.

TreeClimber

I agree. I guess I just don't understand the "oh, well, that's the way it is" thinking. Things can change, but you have to put forth the effort.

 

[LWB Samurai Joe]

"Get your stinking paws off me, you damn dirty ape"

 

[Eric]

I have always thought a goal of wheeling was to make it through the trails with out having to bash your rig to fit. I dont like to see trees that have been debarked. Its one thing if you acidently slide into a tree or something like that, but when you purposly or carelessly bash into a tree or change the trail by creating a bypass that just does not seam right.

Although I do find it funny when the trees win :clappy:

 

[Qman]

I have seen things change a lot over the years. I started in a Jeep in the 70's with friends. In the 90's and the early 2000's I wheeled Subaru's and now I am in a 'yota. I have seen the negativity that exsists on the trails first hand. It is an attitude towards other vehicles then their drivers. Our club never excluded anyone. When the CJ's first started being used as real trail rigs the 2 wheelers were going nuts. Then the the fullsizers started getting into the trail system and the whole I am bigger than you attitude started. Bigger tires, more power and less thought were big in the conflict that followed.

The thing that all users tend to forget is that the wilderness is for everyones enjoyment. When ego's and testicles size start getting involved that is when things will get ruined for all. Check the ego's at the parking lot and have a good day should be the rule of trail etiquette. But, where ever boys and their toys end up the ego is sure to follow. Mine does as well.

The way to solve trail closure and excessive damage is through self policing. Don't let some one do it. Get people to understand that it is OK to use a winch to get over or through an obsticle if it will do the least amount of damage. I wish winches were less expensive so everyone could own one. And more importantly learn to use them. Tree straps, snatch blocks, come-a-longs, chains and straps all play an important role in wheeling.

Width restrictions is one way to save the trails and even the environment. Most of the rigs on the trails are built for trails, rocks or mudding. A few are built for two or even all three. Cross-over rigs are the coolest as they can be most impressive in any environment. But they can also do the most damage in any situation.

I am rambling a bit but it really isn't about the rig so much as it is about the driver. I have seen more full size guys end up on the roof trying to stomp through obstacles that they could have done easily had their drivers really had a clue how to drive them. It really applies to all drivers so don't flame me too much. No one is perfect but teaching all can be a benefit that can last forever. So, next time someone is trying to make their rig an inch or two narrower or they are digging ruts and holes big as their 40's. Talk to them and explain that doing it differently can extend the time that were are allowed to use the trails legally.

 

[Not Jobless]

.....meh......just the nature of things.

All to true whether people like it or not. No rules, no enforcement leads to what we have out there...



Anarchy

 

[Binder]

Width restrictions is one way to save the trails and even the environment. .

I don't agree with this. You guys are trying to make this more complicated than it really is. Full size, full width, big tired,etc, etc don't damage trails. It's the guy driving it. Also if all we had to worry about was full size rigs damaging trails we wouldn't have much to worry about and the trails would be in much better shape then they are.

 

[Qman]

Which is something else I stated. Most of the damage comes from bad drivers not bad rigs!