A little Boeing debate

[wkndtoy]

I have a question for you mark since I truely don't know 100% of what folks do and such.

Now as a installer/assembler don't most folks have a certain set of rules/guidelines to follow in a procedure where there is no grey area? You must follow the letter of the law to complete the task at hand?

It is called "Std work" haha.....within 5-10 years 70% of the jobs will be follow these instructions..:haha:

 

[Maverick26]

Anyone that is going to vote yes for this because they think its going to save there job better read the fine print.
The 777X wing fabrication and assembly work will be performed in the puget sound. The parties agree that the company may subcontract or outsource fabrication and assembly work packages in WHOLE or PART. This goes for the rest of the plane also. With this and all the automation thats going to happen lots of people will be losing there jobs IMO.
Does that make you feel more secure about your job?

Was wondering when someone would read this part. 737max is only on contract tell 2016 too. This is the end either way you look at it, people just dont care to look into the details. No more wing line either with composit wings, Boeing used to promis that they would NEVER outshop the wings and it was the safest job here. But people on the outside dont see this stuff do they?

 

[Maverick26]

I guess if you'll be retired by then, great. F everyone else.

what do you mean? F everyone else? The reason we dont vote in **** contracts is so we dont F everyone else. Or are you saying everyone in the state economy wise if Boeing leaves? Companies leave, companies move, companies close down, there will always be change. Boeing does not need the union to vote down a **** contract to move. If they want to leave then leave. We (IAM) are only around 28,000 strong. What about all the other 160,000 workers? Why are we the ones that need to give consessions in order to keep work in Wa? With record high stock prices, record long back log in orders, and a brand new cash cow model about to hit the floors something does not add up to me.

 

[crash2]

Yes. What are you trying to get at?

Just trying to understand..

 

[Mark m.]

That is like saying that the current 777 final assembly work isn't secure since so much of the airplane is already sourced from other locations and companies. Heck, the same goes for the 737, 747, 767 and 787, too. Might as well just flush all 85,000 good Boeing jobs in Washington down the toilet since since there is no security in them.

I don't think Boeing is bluffing on this one. They won't move out of town overnight, but over the course of 10-20 years. I guess if you'll be retired by then, great. F everyone else.

Well if you don't see that they have already been moving away for the last 20 years your in a dream world. As far as not caring about the younger people the that's just B.S. This deal is best for people like me. The newer people are the ones that are going to get the shaft with this as the years go by. Good luck getting new people to work there for $15 a hour and 16 years to max out and also 1% wage increase every other year for the next 8 years.

 

[CHOP SHOP]

Washington state will close your trails.

Washington state will close your jobs.

But dont worry, the new jobs that Washington state will create will be WAY better than your OLD jobs!



Ready to move yet? See a pattern yet? This state is not an example to follow.

 

[Boomer]

Was wondering when someone would read this part. 737max is only on contract tell 2016 too.

Speaking of not reading the fine print, that's not what LOU 42 actually says.

And as it already has an expiration point, what difference does it make if it is not extended by this contract? Is the point you are trying to make that since Boeing is going away no matter what, it's not worth trying to get them to stay so you may as well get what you can while you can before it's all over?

 

[Boomer]

what do you mean? F everyone else? The reason we dont vote in **** contracts is so we dont F everyone else. Or are you saying everyone in the state economy wise if Boeing leaves? Companies leave, companies move, companies close down, there will always be change. Boeing does not need the union to vote down a **** contract to move. If they want to leave then leave. We (IAM) are only around 28,000 strong. What about all the other 160,000 workers? Why are we the ones that need to give consessions in order to keep work in Wa? With record high stock prices, record long back log in orders, and a brand new cash cow model about to hit the floors something does not add up to me.

It means getting what's good for you now and not caring how it impacts everyone else. Drive Boeing away and it won't matter what you've "won" in the short term. What good is the greatest pay, insurance and pension in the world going to do for jobs that no longer exist? Not a lot of strategic thinkers here.

 

[Boomer]

Well if you don't see that they have already been moving away for the last 20 years your in a dream world. As far as not caring about the younger people the that's just B.S. This deal is best for people like me. The newer people are the ones that are going to get the shaft with this as the years go by. Good luck getting new people to work there for $15 a hour and 16 years to max out and also 1% wage increase every other year for the next 8 years.

So we'd be better off if Boeing just took their crappy new jobs and benefits and left the region entirely? Because that's what the gamble is.

 

[Mark m.]

OTE=crash;1006645]Just trying to understand..[/QUOTE]

I'll be the first one to say the work there is very easy and most jobs take no real skill to do. Is what most people don't get is all the B.S. you have to go through just to do your job. This has not in anyway been a dream job. Its more about what you have to do to make a excellent living and this is my choice. Again this is more about the future for the newer people. Hell I could just take the ten grand and retire and say **** everyone else.

 

[Mark m.]

So we'd be better off if Boeing just took their crappy new jobs and benefits and left the region entirely? Because that's what the gamble is.[/QUOTE
No this not what I'm saying. There is lots of things pointing to this thing being built here. Why do think this is such a rush to vote on this. At the air show in two weeks where they expect to sell lots of the new 777s do you really think the customers want to hear ya were not sure where we will even build but it will be a complete new work force like the 787 factory in S.C. That's working out real good. They have only built like six planes in 2 years. Do you think That's.what the airlines want to hear?

 

[crash2]

OTE=crash;1006645]Just trying to understand..

I'll be the first one to say the work there is very easy and most jobs take no real skill to do. Is what most people don't get is all the B.S. you have to go through just to do your job. This has not in anyway been a dream job. Its more about what you have to do to make a excellent living and this is my choice. Again this is more about the future for the newer people. Hell I could just take the ten grand and retire and say **** everyone else.[/quote]

The BS I do understand and have heard lots of good stories regarding it and most of the stuff I have heard was regarding union procedures(what ya can/can't do).

 

[seh]

I don't work at Boeing so I have no real clue what is in any of your contracts, only what I hear and read. I personally dont see anyone winning no matter how the vote goes.

The ****ty part for me is that wages where I work are based off what you guys (at Boeing) make. We make more here than our coworkers in California and on the east coast by quite a bit. So I hate to see you guys loose anything.

 

[Lucky Jeff]

I guess if you'll be retired by then, great. F everyone else.

I think that's what it will come down to on this one. Not implying that Mark is going to say F everyone. But it's more of a gamble for certain employees. Not so sure I am willing to take that gamble.

 

[skinny_pedal]

How old was she?

No was:D She is 29. He was in his early 60's when he passed

 

[Boomer]

No this not what I'm saying. There is lots of things pointing to this thing being built here. Why do think this is such a rush to vote on this. At the air show in two weeks where they expect to sell lots of the new 777s do you really think the customers want to hear ya were not sure where we will even build but it will be a complete new work force like the 787 factory in S.C. That's working out real good. They have only built like six planes in 2 years. Do you think that's what the airlines want to hear?

No, I don't think that's what customers want to hear. But a 777 derivative isn't the 787. Unlike the substantially different technology used in the 787, Boeing already has extensive expertise building conventional commercial airplanes like the 777. Just look at the problems Boeing has had with the 787 rollout trying to put it together themselves in Everett compared to the original 777 rollout. And as you said, look at how many of the sub-assemblies already come from outside vendors. I don't think setting up a new 777 line elsewhere would as difficult as the 787 has been. And they still have a good 6-7 or more years to get it in place. Even Airbus is building a new commercial airplane factory in Mobile, AL. Sorry guys, I don't like the situation any more than you do, but the writing is on the wall: It's not going to be the same game anymore. So to me the biggest remaining question is: Do we want to keep jobs here that while not as great as they once were are still pretty darn good? Or maintain the current status quo for existing employees and then go the way of Detroit?

 

[Boomer]

No was:D She is 29. He was in his early 60's when he passed

If she was/is 29, I have difficulty believing that she "inherited" her father's Boeing pension. At least not the same pension that the IAM members participate in. I have not seen a provision for that. A pensioner can choose to leave their spouse part or all of their pension and there may be a provision for minor children/dependents.

Maybe something else? What did her father do?

 

[Lucky Jeff]

The 787 delays were because of outsourcing. But I don't believe Boeing has "learned their lesson " like so many are relying on. They'll just work towards improving that practice.

 

[Mark m.]

I think that's what it will come down to on this one. Not implying that Mark is going to say F everyone. But it's more of a gamble for certain employees. Not so sure I am willing to take that gamble.

I'm not ready to retire or I would say **** all you new people and take the $10,000 and run. I want 10 more years. But if this this passes I may just say screw it and retire because it will be the beginning of the end . Jeff don't you have generations of family that have worked there? Your willing to throw away everything they fought for so you could have the same opportunities they did? If so I guess I understand. Its every man woman for them shelves now I guess. This company cares about no one but the top 1%

 

[Lucky Jeff]

I'm not ready to retire or I would say **** all you new people and take the $10,000 and run. I want 10 more years. But if this this passes I may just say screw it and retire because it will be the beginning of the end . Jeff don't you have generations of family that have worked there? Your willing to throw away everything they fought for so you could have the same opportunities they did? If so I guess I understand. Its every man woman for them shelves now I guess. This company cares about no one but the top 1%

I'm not liking any part of this. But the circumstances are no longer the same. They've shown they can and will build elsewhere. I believe they're giving us a chance to play along and save both parties the headache. I may be wrong, but like I said, it's a gamble.

 

[Boomer]

I think that's what it will come down to on this one. Not implying that Mark is going to say F everyone. But it's more of a gamble for certain employees. Not so sure I am willing to take that gamble.

Our plans have long been for my wife to take an early retirement in 10 more years. I did the math and whether this extension is approved or not does not significantly impact those plans one way or the other. I don't think the healthcare is unreasonable. 1% GWIs every other year is unpalatable and a 16 year progressive pay scale is just crazy. That is where I wish the company would up their offer. I am really on the fence about this one, leaning more for than against. To me it's more about whether these jobs will be around for the next couple of generations. My wife was really against it until I showed her the math and explained what the effects would really be. Now I am not so sure what her exact stance is on it.

 

[Boomer]

Your willing to throw away everything they fought for so you could have the same opportunities they did?

Ever hear the term "Pyrrhic victory"?

 

[Boomer]

A good read on the subject: http://www.thestand.org/2013/10/washington-the-clear-choice-for-the-777x/

 

[Mark m.]

I'm all done *****ing about this thing. I do relize the outcome means different thing for lots of people. Wednesday night we will know who's happy and who's not. IMO in the end the only real happy people will be the top Boeing executives.:kissmybutt:

 

[Jacob]

I'm not ready to retire or I would say **** all you new people and take the $10,000 and run. I want 10 more years. But if this this passes I may just say screw it and retire because it will be the beginning of the end . Jeff don't you have generations of family that have worked there? Your willing to throw away everything they fought for so you could have the same opportunities they did? If so I guess I understand. Its every man woman for them shelves now I guess. This company cares about no one but the top 1%

If you were in financial trouble in your household would you keep everything as is because you worked so hard for it or would you look at your budget and cut some frills to keep food on the table?

I have no knowledge of Boeing or Unions, but this seriously sounds like the big 3 and Detroit all over again and you see how that worked out.

 

[Lucky Jeff]

I do relize the outcome means different thing for lots of people. Wednesday night we will know who's happy and who's not. IMO in the end the only real happy people will be the top Boeing executives.:kissmybutt:

I think we can all agree on that.

 

[Boomer]

Another good read: http://m.bizjournals.com/seattle/news/2013/11/04/logistical-challenges-face-boeing-if.html?r=full

 

[JesterFab]

When the CEOs and management take pay/ retirement/ healthcare cuts, then I will too. Until then, whats the point to vote yes on this contract. We still have a contract either way.
The union labor only acounts for about 5-10% of the cost of the airplane. Why does the union have to take more cuts? Do you really think they will lower the purchase prices of the planes to "compete", if we sign this contract?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/17/boeing-ceo-pay_n_2895721.html

Heres one of the many CEOs pay, how is this realistic? Why not cut his pay in half, and so on down the chain. Can he not live on half that income?

Corporate will be the falling of boeing, not the union.

 

[crash2]

When the CEOs and management take pay/ retirement/ healthcare cuts, then I will too. Until then, whats the point to vote yes on this contract. We still have a contract either way.
The union labor only acounts for about 5-10% of the cost of the airplane. Why does the union have to take more cuts? Do you really think they will lower the purchase prices of the planes to "compete", if we sign this contract?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/17/boeing-ceo-pay_n_2895721.html

Heres one of the many CEOs pay, how is this realistic? Why not cut his pay in half, and so on down the chain. Can he not live on half that income?

When you say 5-10% is that on the selling price or the cost to build it?

Yesterday I sat down with a buddy who works down there and we figured the rough hours spent on that new plastic plane and it was a crazy amount of hours.

 

[JesterFab]

I am trying to find some facts on the cost to build. If they sell the plane for 220 million, only say 5% of that was labor. Thats my understanding, obviously medical and retirement would add up long term.

It is not the unions fault on how long it takes to build the 787. It is one of the worse programs, and the company plans to implement the 787 "ways" into all other programs sooner or later.

Mike to answer one of your other questions... the union does not decide what processes I have to follow in order to complete a task, thats engineering and FAA.
Lets say you had to install a steering box in a truck...
First you need the parts, then the directions, the truck, etc.
So here is 787 boeing process...
Find parts 10-30 mins, if they are there
Find drawing and research 30 mins-1hr
Make sure you will not be burying someone elses job
Maybe get the ok to install the part from quality personnel 30 mins-1 hr if required
Get the tools 30 mins
Install part 30- 1 hr
Have quality check the work 30-1 hr
Stamp off all paperwork and clean up area, put tools away etc 30 mins

So that may be about a day of work, that would take you an hour in any other world. It complete joke of what it takes to do something there. Now on MarkM side of the fence, different program and a lot smoother operation, but still may take a couple hours or so.
This does not include the weekly and yearly training that I have to maintain, and meetings that mechanics have to go to.

787 management wants job sales, so installing the steering box is one sale.
All they see is 1 sale, not the work that you actually did.
So the more the better right? Not if I just installed that part and buried all my other co-workers jobs just to get mine done. But in the end, it doesnt matter because I sold a job. This mentality is why the program is failing, not to mention the poor workmanship of the vendors.
South Carolina is failing, it was rumored that FAA pulled there certificate, so no deliveries until they get that back.