A little Boeing debate

[zip1]

Here's a good article?

http://www.thestand.org/2013/10/washington-the-clear-choice-for-the-777x/

Washington is the clear choice for the 777X




By DAVID GROVES

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

EVERETT, Wash. (Oct. 31, 2013)

 

[crash2]

I am trying to find some facts on the cost to build. If they sell the plane for 220 million, only say 5% of that was labor. Thats my understanding, obviously medical and retirement would add up long term.

It is not the unions fault on how long it takes to build the 787. It is one of the worse programs, and the company plans to implement the 787 "ways" into all other programs sooner or later.

Mike to answer one of your other questions... the union does not decide what processes I have to follow in order to complete a task, thats engineering and FAA.
Lets say you had to install a steering box in a truck...
First you need the parts, then the directions, the truck, etc.
So here is 787 boeing process...
Find parts 10-30 mins, if they are there
Find drawing and research 30 mins-1hr
Make sure you will not be burying someone elses job
Maybe get the ok to install the part from quality personnel 30 mins-1 hr if required
Get the tools 30 mins
Install part 30- 1 hr
Have quality check the work 30-1 hr
Stamp off all paperwork and clean up area, put tools away etc 30 mins

So that may be about a day of work, that would take you an hour in any other world. It complete joke of what it takes to do something there. Now on MarkM side of the fence, different program and a lot smoother operation, but still may take a couple hours or so.
This does not include the weekly and yearly training that I have to maintain, and meetings that mechanics have to go to.

787 management wants job sales, so installing the steering box is one sale.
All they see is 1 sale, not the work that you actually did.
So the more the better right? Not if I just installed that part and buried all my other co-workers jobs just to get mine done. But in the end, it doesnt matter because I sold a job. This mentality is why the program is failing, not to mention the poor workmanship of the vendors.
South Carolina is failing, it was rumored that FAA pulled there certificate, so no deliveries until they get that back.

Thanks for the info--I know there is ALLOT I don't.

But I am sure some of the wasted time is due to the union itself from what I have heard. For instance a non union worker cannot help a union worker (wasted time). I work where every second counts and I am liable for what I do.

Could you imagin if the work there was done in that way how much more folks would be eager to move along than not and with the FAA oversight things would still get done correctly.

 

[Lucky Jeff]

Thanks for the info--I know there is ALLOT I don't.

But I am sure some of the wasted time is due to the union itself from what I have heard. For instance a non union worker cannot help a union worker (wasted time). I work where every second counts and I am liable for what I do.

Could you imagin if the work there was done in that way how much more folks would be eager to move along than not and with the FAA oversight things would still get done correctly.

Only union workers are on the plane. The union doesn't slow the build down. But it does help keep lazy mofos in the planes.

 

[crash2]

Only union workers are on the plane. The union doesn't slow the build down. But it does help keep lazy mofos in the planes.

So only union workers are aloud where the planes are built?

 

[JesterFab]

South Carolina is proving that it doesn't work though...
Also union contract says that we build the airplane, why let non-union workers do our work? Its like having the customer of the truck you are working on, come in and help in order to get cost down, which then you would make less.
Plenty of non-union people in that company that are our support groups, just not aloud to assemble the plane.

 

[crash2]

South Carolina is proving that it doesn't work though...
Also union contract says that we build the airplane, why let non-union workers do our work? Its like having the customer of the truck you are working on, come in and help in order to get cost down, which then you would make less.
Plenty of non-union people in that company that are our support groups, just not aloud to assemble the plane.

My point is if somebody who is non union who happens to be at the right place cannot help a union worker who needs help--causing the union worker to have to waist time to get help--this I have first hand knowledge of happening.

Again workers should be liable for there time..

 

[JesterFab]

So 1 union worker was sent to do something, that takes 2 people to do? I don't see this being a unions problem....
Main reason for the union is to guarantee our rights and save our jobs.

 

[Lucky Jeff]

So only union workers are aloud where the planes are built?

Can't touch the tools and work on a plane. I have 8 Co workers within 15 feet of me that can help if needed. That's never been an issue.

 

[crash2]

So 1 union worker was sent to do something, that takes 2 people to do? I don't see this being a unions problem....
Main reason for the union is to guarantee our rights and save our jobs.

Oh come on--you can't tell me you have been in situations where you quickly needed an extra hand..

I have a buddy who was a manager and on several occasions he had to sit there and watch guys sit and wait for somebody to come and help (since he could not). Now I don't know if the worker was an idiot or not :D (should see some of the techs I have seen over my years).

 

[JesterFab]

That manager is not certified to work on the airplane... thats a huge liability for the company. Whatever a quick hand means? But no I have never had a manager standing next to me and needed him to help me. I was hired to do a job, and so was he, its not like I go up to his crew and manage them while he is out...

 

[Lucky Jeff]

FAA would have a field day with that. That has nothing to do with the union.

 

[toyzuk]

i dont know a thing about what goes on inside of boeing but i do know they HAVE to stay here in washington, they keep alot of construction workers busy , me included, way to much red tape for the construction industry but we deal with it for the the work. they are a major asset to our region, can you imagine what would happen to our area if they left and sent the jobs elsewhere, it would affect everyone in washington in a drastic way. all the little machine shops and construction companies, it sucks dealing with them but it is what it is. i know too many people that work, subcontracted or whatever, for boeing in one way or another.

 

[I B RACIN]

I spent almost 30 years as a heavy equipment operator and in that time I worked both union and non-union jobs, and without question I always had better benefits and better pay as a union member, so it always makes me laugh when people that are non-union and have never worked union talk like they know what the unions are all about.

That said when the bottom fell out of construction I went to work for Boeing looking for work stability, I to have a deep family history with Boeing 2 Grandfathers, 2 uncles, 1 aunt my father (all retired) and my brother still works there.

I hired in as a grade 5 heavy structures mechanic on the 777 and while the benefits are very good the pay when you start really sucks compared to the 38.00 per hour I was making as a heavy equipment operator.

With that said I also work with a lot of young people that are happy as hell because the starting pay at Boeing is the most they have ever made, so for them the 10,000 signing bonus is like winning the lotto...

After reading over the purposed contract, I would have to say over all its not horrible, but some things are not good, I really don't like the strong arm tactics (sign it now or else), the short time given us to try and make an informed vote,( although I understand why they want it before the air show) but they should have presented it to us months ago.

I really don't know what the difference is between a 401k and the Boeing pension, I think 1/2 a % a year general wage increase is unrealistic, 16 years to make max money is ridiculous, the health care is still better than most, I don't like the wording on how they can sub out whatever they want.

The biggest thing I have noticed since I've went to work at Boeing is all the dead weight lazy ****s that are there, old timers and new, The union makes it very hard to get rid of the dead weight, and I think thats not a good thing FROM A BUSINESS STANDPOINT!

 

[NotSoPC]

That said when the bottom fell out of construction I went to work for Boeing looking for work stability, I to have a deep family history with Boeing 2 Grandfathers, 2 uncles, 1 aunt my father (all retired) and my brother still works there.

I really don't know what the difference is between a 401k and the Boeing pension, I think 1/2 a % a year general wage increase is unrealistic, 16 years to make max money is ridiculous, the health care is still better than most, I don't like the wording on how they can sub out whatever they want.

The biggest thing I have noticed since I've went to work at Boeing is all the dead weight lazy ****s that are there, old timers and new, The union makes it very hard to get rid of the dead weight, and I think thats not a good thing FROM A BUSINESS STANDPOINT!

I am the third generation of my family to work for Boeing. Currently its just me and one uncle who still work there as everyone else retired.

What I like about the 401K over the pension is that the 401K can be a better retirement if done right. The pension locks you in at a set amount, and it depends on what the contract is when you leave.

I have been in Boeing for just under 7 years and worked the 737 line for 3.5 years before moving down to the Auburn plant. It really don't matter where you are or what you do for Boeing cause you will still be stuck with **** bags who don't do ****. The union backs them and makes it hard as hell to get rid of them. I would bet Boeing could run better if they dumped the **** bags who make up about 20% of the workers.

The progression would be 20 years for a grade 4 spot to max rate. That's about my biggest issue with the offer. However people will still want the job as the $400 a month for medical in 2024 is a hell of a lot better then the $800+ people will be paying outside of Boeing. Can't blame Boeing for the cost of medical when it was the IAM who supported the ADA and Obama.

 

[crash2]

The days of pensions are over--look at what the automotive industry (manufacturing) had to do and they are the only thing close to Boeing in reference to the amount of people it had in employment.

As for the company strong arming the employees, is that any different to what the union has done to the company?

 

[Lucky Jeff]

I'm against the progression steps, the wage increase offer and their strong arm tactics. They've already realized they made a mistake when they said take this or we leave.

And yes, the 401k can be much better if you care to think about your retirement early.

 

[NotSoPC]

The days of pensions are over--look at what the automotive industry (manufacturing) had to do and they are the only thing close to Boeing in reference to the amount of people it had in employment.

As for the company strong arming the employees, is that any different to what the union has done to the company?

I don't blame them for the strong arming. The union does the same thing to the company. I would rather have a 401K style set up over the standard pension.

People getting pissed over the strong arming is a bit dumb I think. The old thought that no one can do what we do is wrong and out dated. SC is doing it without the union. Boeing could build the 777X anyplace they feel like. Boeing could also move other lines over in phases and not even offer to build a new line here in the future. What we do is not hard. We get paid exceedingly well for the work we are asked to do. Any other state would be more then happy to have our work there for their people.

To me we have to look at what Boeing knows they can do, move. They are offering this now so they have time to build what is needed to build the 777X else where. If we turn this down it is a big gamble that I for one am not willing to take. That is unless they move it to Montana, then I am game for going with it.

 

[NotSoPC]

I'm against the progression steps, the wage increase offer and their strong arm tactics. They've already realized they made a mistake when they said take this or we leave.

And yes, the 401k can be much better if you care to think about your retirement early.

Being that I am 27 I have a long way to go before I retire. A 401K style retirement is a better set up for me. The GWI is not great but with the fact that we make as much more then the average as we do I don't expect to be getting any raises. If people want more money per hour then they need to look at moving up a pay grade.

 

[crash2]

I don't blame them for the strong arming. The union does the same thing to the company. I would rather have a 401K style set up over the standard pension.

People getting pissed over the strong arming is a bit dumb I think. The old thought that no one can do what we do is wrong and out dated. SC is doing it without the union. Boeing could build the 777X anyplace they feel like. Boeing could also move other lines over in phases and not even offer to build a new line here in the future. What we do is not hard. We get paid exceedingly well for the work we are asked to do. Any other state would be more then happy to have our work there for their people.

To me we have to look at what Boeing knows they can do, move. They are offering this now so they have time to build what is needed to build the 777X else where. If we turn this down it is a big gamble that I for one am not willing to take. That is unless they move it to Montana, then I am game for going with it.

Hell I would even relocate to montana if they did,lol...

You see more and more "evolution" to what the UAW has gone thru.

 

[Lucky Jeff]

I'd move, just not to any of the states they have their eye on :redneck:

 

[I B RACIN]

The days of pensions are over--look at what the automotive industry (manufacturing) had to do and they are the only thing close to Boeing in reference to the amount of people it had in employment.

As for the company strong arming the employees, is that any different to what the union has done to the company?

it is not the same thing, we as union members don't come to Boeing in the middle of a contract, and say we want this and that or else, and we are only giving you a week to decide...

When it is time for a new contract then it is negotiating time for Boeing and the union membership

 

[I B RACIN]

I don't blame them for the strong arming. The union does the same thing to the company. I would rather have a 401K style set up over the standard pension.

People getting pissed over the strong arming is a bit dumb I think. The old thought that no one can do what we do is wrong and out dated. SC is doing it without the union. Boeing could build the 777X anyplace they feel like. Boeing could also move other lines over in phases and not even offer to build a new line here in the future. What we do is not hard. We get paid exceedingly well for the work we are asked to do. Any other state would be more then happy to have our work there for their people.

To me we have to look at what Boeing knows they can do, move. They are offering this now so they have time to build what is needed to build the 777X else where. If we turn this down it is a big gamble that I for one am not willing to take. That is unless they move it to Montana, then I am game for going with it.

you better re-check your facts South Carolina is a huge failure....

 

[crash2]

it is not the same thing, we as union members don't come to Boeing in the middle of a contract, and say we want this and that or else, and we are only giving you a week to decide...

When it is time for a new contract then it is negotiating time for Boeing and the union membership

So whats a strike then?

 

[I B RACIN]

A strike is part of the negotiating process if necessary, it is the only thing we have to keep things fair, most don't seem to understand we want Boeing to make money thats how we stay employed, and right now they are making lots of it.

 

[crash2]

No--its strong arming somebody into doing something be it actually doing it or bringing somebody to the negotiating table. So if its not strong arming somebody then why do it?

 

[Lucky Jeff]

Going on strike is still bargaining. The workers say "give us something better or we will cost you time and money." Boeing needed to make a decision before a large show and told the employees "do this now or we will leave the Northwest." Slightly different.

BUT, SC gave huge tax cuts to Boeing very recently. And even though they have bought up land down there, they already gave big cuts to Boeing without any real proof that it has been a benefit to them. Not to mention they haven't performed as well as they were expected to, and potential customers know that. They also have options in Cali, Utah and Texas. But the chances of them getting cuts as big as WA offers (which some firms consider illegal) are slim. Boeing will move out of this state regardless. But they do not have the ability to leave as soon as they are threatening. So, either we ride it out as we are, and stay here. Or take less (overall) and stay here. That's a gamble and an assumption, but the hand we were dealt is not as bad as Boeing wanted us to believe

 

[NotSoPC]

No--its strong arming somebody into doing something be it actually doing it or bringing somebody to the negotiating table. So if its not strong arming somebody then why do it?

A strike is strong arming and grown ass men throwing a temper tantrum.

 

[Lucky Jeff]

The strong voice of a few, manipulate many. It's true for both sides, and ruins it for all.

 

[DHR Darren]

A strike is strong arming and grown ass men throwing a temper tantrum.

This.

It is a bunch of grown ups who were given trophys for 17th place....

 

[NotSoPC]

you better re-check your facts South Carolina is a huge failure....

how so? They started with few people knowing what they were doing on a plane that no one had built before in a place they had never built planes before. Everett has been building planes for decades and the roll out plane that was such a big deal was far from done. Hell the doors were fake and just painted. With the all the issues we had here I see SC as doing well for starting with less and doing about the same as we did.