Fords PSD vs Dodes Cummins..

[jeepermc]

What yr?? Your right though, there were so many different turbos put on Fords..

No wastegate on OBS trucks. 94-97

 

[redrocket1]

I don't work on them, but I think the weaknesses of all the engines are the smog and computer crap, we never had issues with diesels in our tractors or equipment, heck they would run on anything and last forever.

I think you hit it on the head. All of the new motors suck on mpgs because of emissions equipment which is also the reason the 6.0 had so many issues. That being said I own a 6.0 and have an egr delete problem solved no egr cooler to blow and cause a HG failure. If you keep them in stock form they are every bit as reliable as the cummins which as previously stated has a weak fuel delivery system even in stock form it sucks. My dad's '99 and my brother's '01 both have gone through 2 vp44 and finally I talked my dad into upgrading it so I didn't have to drive from olympia to salem again to tow his
5th wheel home for him again. It for me came down to the truck not the engine. I wish someone could make one we didn't have to modify to make it reliable. I'm glad we left the dmax out of this since it only comes in a truck equipped with IFS.uke::stirpot:

 

[Glenn]

Here's some food for thought, a comparison between the two.......
Two engines with the same power output. One is smaller than the other- cubic inches. The smaller engine has a higher compression ratio and more turbo boost which is harder on components so they must be beefier. The larger engine can have a lower compression ratio and less boost to make the same power so the components don't need to be as beefy. Now take into account that the smaller engine also has 3/4 as many cylinders so each cylinder must make up the difference which requires it to be even beefier. The smaller engine is designed to run at a lower RPM range so in order to make the same power it has to make even more torque to get the same power. More torque= components must be even beefier to hold up.
What's this all add up to? Many have pointed out in the past that the Cummins has a beefier bottom end which it does. Above are a few reasons why.
It's just two slightly different approaches to get the same end result being the same power output. Doesn't make either one right or wrong.:;

What smaller engine are you comparing what to?

That's not really a fair comparison because it's a given that one will have to work harder than the other to achieve the same power. That is why I was trying to keep size differences to a minimum when I posted the bore and stroke figures.

Six cylinder v eight cylinder rods...the former will have bigger rods because they do more work than the rods in the other engine, and so on.

 

[redrocket1]

http://www.big3diesel.com/73comparison.html
Compares all 3 and all three make their power in the exact same rpm ranges.
Here are the specs on the PSD and Cummins engines

6.0 L Specifications:
Displacement: 365 cubic inches, 6.0 liters
Configuration: V-8
Compression Ratio: 18.0:1
Bore: 3.74 inches
Stroke: 4.13 inches
Injection: Direct injection, Electro Hydraulic Generation Two (G2) injection technology
Aspiration: Single variable geometry turbocharger (VGT)
Valvetrain: Single gear driven camshaft, 4-valves per cylinder
Oil Capacity: 15 quarts
Weight: approx. 966 lbs
Horsepower (peak)*: 325 HP @ 3,300 RPM
Torque (peak)*: 570 lb-ft @ 2,000 RPM

6.4 L Specifications:
Displacement: 390 cubic inches, 6.4 liters
Configuration: V-8
Compression Ratio: 16.7:1
Bore: 3.86 inches
Stroke: 4.13 inches
Injection: Direct injection, high pressure common rail injection system
Aspiration: Twin sequential turbochargers
Valvetrain: OHV, 4 valves per cylinder
Oil Capacity: 15 quarts
Weight: approx. 1,150 lbs
Horsepower (peak)*: 350 HP @ 3,000 RPM
Torque (peak)*: 650 lb-ft @ 2,000 RPM

6.7 L Specifications:


Displacement: 408 cubic inches, 6.7 liters
Configuration: Inline 6 cylinder
Compression Ratio: 17.3:1
Bore: 4.21 inches
Stroke: 4.88 inches
Injection: Direct injection:
Electronically controlled Bosch high pressure common rail; 26,000 psi max.
Aspiration: Variable geometry turbocharger
Valvetrain: OHV, 4 valves per cylinder, solid lifter camshaft
Oil Capacity: 12 quarts
Weight: n/a
Horsepower: 350 HP @ 3,013 RPM
Torque: 650 lb-ft @ 1,500 RPM w/auto trans
610 lb-ft @ 1,500 RPM w/manual trans

5.9 L ISB Specifications:


Displacement: 359 cubic inches, 5.9 liters
Configuration: Inline 6 cylinder
Compression Ratio: 16.3:1, 17.2:1 (high output version)
Bore: 4.02 inches
Stroke: 4.72 inches
Injection: Direct Injection:
Electronically controlled Bosch VP44 rotary injection pump. Bosch high pressure common rail injection introduced for 2003 model year.

Aspiration: Holset turbocharger
Valvetrain: OHV, 4 valves per cylinder, solid lifter camshaft
Oil Capacity: 10 quarts
Weight: approx. 1,150 lbs
*Horsepower: 235 - 325 HP @ 2,900 RPM
*Torque: 460 - 610 lb-ft @ 1,600 RPM

5.9 L Specifications:


Displacement: 359 cubic inches, 5.9 liters
Configuration: Inline 6 cylinder
Compression Ratio: 17.0:1
Bore: 4.02 inches
Stroke: 4.72 inches
Injection: Direct Injection:
Bosch VE injection pump (1989-1993).
Bosch P7100 injection pump (1994-1998).
Aspiration: Holset turbocharger
Valvetrain: OHV, 2 valves per cylinder, solid lifter camshaft
Oil Capacity: 11 quarts
Weight: approx. 975 lbs
*Horsepower: 160 - 215 HP @ 2,500 RPM
*Torque: 400 - 440 lb-ft @ 1,600 RPM

 

[Glenn]

http://www.big3diesel.com/73comparison.html
Compares all 3 and it's funny but all three make their power in the exact same rpm ranges.

And the V8s have a minimum of 44 CID over the I6 to put out those power figures. :;

 

[redrocket1]

And the V8s have a minimum of 44 CID over the I6 to put out those power figures. :;

Unless you look at the new specs I put up and find that uh oh the 6.0 as you could've figured has nearly the same numbers and only 4 CID more.:awesomework: So I will reiterate after all the d*ck measuring is done here it really doesn't matter which motor you have if you like it. I for one would love to have '99-'02 CTD so I have a 2nd tow rig so the wife doesn't pull rank and get to tow her damn horsies around on the weekend. The main reason for buying a CTD for a 2nd is you guessed it $$$. Used CTDs are far cheaper than either PSDs or DMAXs.

 

[Lucky Jeff]

:haha: you want the one truck with the main problems that everyone bitches about

 

[redrocket1]

:haha: you want the one truck with the main problems that everyone bitches about

I hate the 12valves driven several and would never own one people will always bitch about something. I already own a 6.0 but it's an '05 and has no where near the problems that everyone bitches about. Once I again I will point out that every single one of the motors that I listed has it's problems but none of them can't be fixed and most of the fixes are cheap other than head studs on the 03-04 6.0. Unless of course you do that one yourself but I wouldn't really want to pull the cab. So it's once again down to truck preference not motors. Anybody that would buy their vehicle based solely on brand is a douche.

 

[Lucky Jeff]

I can't wait to hear why the quieter, lack of fuel pump problems and cheaper to mod 12 valve is so terrible in comparison to a 24 valve..... And it seems you can't read, none of us have stated that we are brand loyal.. :looser:

And if you knew Fords so well, you'd know that the majority of the issues were in the early years of the 6ohno. It is no surprise that your 05 does just fine, most do

 

[redrocket1]

I can't wait to hear why the quieter, lack of fuel pump problems and cheaper to mod 12 valve is so terrible in comparison to a 24 valve..... And it seems you can't read, none of us have stated that we are brand loyal.. :looser:

And if you knew Fords so well, you'd know that the majority of the issues were in the early years of the 6ohno. It is no surprise that your 05 does just fine, most do

Sorry I wasn't clear enough I know that the 03-04s had the majority of the problems but even in this thread the common misconception that they're all junk is here I was trying to point out that it was those first couple years and with any of them for a little money your problems can be fixed. As for the 12v I was specifically talking about the pre 94s which are cool mechanical motors just happen to be packaged in a **** sandwich. I'd love to hear a 24v and 12v
side x side though to hear these quieter mechanical injectors you speak of though. Might be just the same amount of noise but it's been awhile since I've heard the two next two each other hell maybe I'm deaf. It could be from installing all that car audio.

 

[Lucky Jeff]

93 and older are good old work trucks. They'll run for ever. But holy crap do they have a bad ride..

The noise level between the two (94-98 and 98.5-02) is different because of the injection pumps themselves, not the injectors used. P-pump doesn't have the high pitched noise the VP pump does.

We all know there are pluses and minuses to both engines throughout the years, we just hashed it out in a broad Cummins vs Powerstroke battle :redneck:

 

[redrocket1]

Hopefully I picked the right motors you were talking about but the 12valve definitely sounds louder too me.:eeek: Yeah I know it was a broad discussion the only problem with that is people tend to try and compare vehicles that aren't similar. You honestly can't fairly compare the reliability of a 12v to a 6.0 or an old pre SD stroke to a 24valve or common rail that's the point I was trying to make and it looks like someone finally understood my muttering.:awesomework: Now I can go get drunk.:beer:

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Ok so now that I've had the time to listen to it on my home computer instead of my laptops shitty speakers I definitely hear the pump like you are talking about.:redneck:

 

[Binder]

Here's some food for thought, a comparison between the two.......
Two engines with the same power output. One is smaller than the other- cubic inches. The smaller engine has a higher compression ratio and more turbo boost which is harder on components so they must be beefier. The larger engine can have a lower compression ratio and less boost to make the same power so the components don't need to be as beefy. Now take into account that the smaller engine also has 3/4 as many cylinders so each cylinder must make up the difference which requires it to be even beefier. The smaller engine is designed to run at a lower RPM range so in order to make the same power it has to make even more torque to get the same power. More torque= components must be even beefier to hold up.
What's this all add up to? Many have pointed out in the past that the Cummins has a beefier bottom end which it does. Above are a few reasons why.
It's just two slightly different approaches to get the same end result being the same power output. Doesn't make either one right or wrong.:;

That's not really a fair comparison because it's a given that one will have to work harder than the other to achieve the same power. That is why I was trying to keep size differences to a minimum when I posted the bore and stroke figures.

Why is it not fair? Comparison is the whole reason for this thread..

And the V8s have a minimum of 44 CID over the I6 to put out those power figures. :;

Did you read the post above?

 

[redrocket1]

:beatdeadhorse:

 

[Alpine4x4]

CTD:fawkdancesmiley:

Cheaper injectors, cheaper twin setup, and it aint a real truck if it aint rattlin':redneck:

Downside is the fuel system (24v). Any real fuel mods (programmer) will require an upgraded lift pump if you wire tap the vp-44, unless you like replacing a $1000 part often.

I know my CTD is faster than my buddies 7.3 PSD. Then again I'm lighter (I'm a quad cab shortbox 98.5, hes a 4 door early 2000 model shortbox) and my chip cranks out more power on paper (quadzilla adrenaline vs edge in his). I love his truck though. Nothing like being able to run 80% filtered waste oil and not worry about a touchy injection pump.:looser:


Oh and Jeff, for the straight pipe comment :flipoff::flipoff::flipoff:

 

[Lucky Jeff]

Oh and Jeff, for the straight pipe comment :flipoff::flipoff::flipoff:

I was wondering when someone would yell at me for that :haha:

 

[Bunk1]

I like my old mechanical simple 12v and the fact that its very common to see 400k+ on them.

Too bad the rest of the truck is total garbage.

 

[Lucky Jeff]

I must have a super special Dodge. My steering is a little sloppy now. But other then that, the truck itself has been great. Only problem it's had is the guy behind the wheel and a small tear in the drivers seat. All I ever hear is how these trucks just fall apart if you look at them wrong. My grandpas 1st gen had no real issues, my 2nd gen hasn't, and neither has my Dad's 3rd gen.

Interior in the Ford is an eyesore. Love the interior of my 2nd gen, not so much on my Dad's 3rd gen though. And Fords ride like absolute **** unless you get an 05 or newer. Exterior styling is personal preference. But I'd jump on an OBS over a SD any day of the week. Still like the styling on my 2nd gen the most though.

 

[Trailtoy1993]

Seriously? Do some of you even read your posts before hitting submit?

"they all make power in the exact same rpm range" REALLY? Looks to me like the CTD makes its peak torque 500 rpm lower than the PoS. Is it just me?

"Horsepower is the measure of work, torque is bullshit" REALLY? Well how bout this, we'll put my 300hp turbo toyota 4cylinder in your tow rig. It makes the same HP as your PS right? Should work fine, RIGHT? Come on man, that turbo toy motor is awesome but it sure as F$%K ain't gonna tow like a diesel. Horsepower is a contrived figure based off of torque, y'alls posted the formula yourselves, it was developed by tractor salesmen in the early 1900's to help them show farmers how much better the new tractors were than horses, torque is the only figure that really matters when pulling. CTD's make there torque lower and carry that peak dead flat til the rev limiter, which shows the potential that is inside... The stock motor is limited.

And last, an inline six has SEVEN main bearings vs. FIVE for an eight cylinder, which one is going to keep the crank from moving around better under big work conditions? (hint: the one with more bearings!)

I have personal experience with two PS trucks and two CTD trucks the first PS was a work truck that was always leaking or dropping accessory drive pullies until the lower end gave out. The second was a buddies truck that I towed with for a while, he traded it in and a week later the dealer called trying to go back on the deal because the lower end was going out.....

I did a shitload of research before I bought my first CTD. After alot of bullshit filtering I came away with the belief that the CTD was the more durable package than either the PS or duraturd. I loved that truck and only had one problem....VP44.... which after FASS never happened again. I really wish I still had that truck because my 6.7 CTD I really wonder if its going to be a durable ride, I already had a VGT replaced at 42k miles.....

Really, unmodified, the two motors will each most likely last and perform great. Just my experience says that stock 7.3 PS's < 5.9 CTD's.

 

[Binder]

"Horsepower is the measure of work, torque is bullshit" REALLY?

Yes really. If you want to start another thread we can talk about this too....

Well how bout this, we'll put my 300hp turbo toyota 4cylinder in your tow rig. It makes the same HP as your PS right? Should work fine, RIGHT? .

If the Toy had the same RPM range then it would tow as well but we all know it has a much more limited power band. Again start your own thread if you wish.