Important new Busywild restriction update.

[Gibby1]

This is a option that will work. Just because the people involved in these negotiations are too ignorant to think about ALL of the options doesn't mean it won't work. Because the DNR is unwilling to try something doesn't mean it won't work.
As i've said before it doesn't take much of a presence to make a differnce. If the DNR spent as much time on enforcement as they do talking about these restrictions it would have already made a difference. How does this take more money?
All it takes is someone from the DNR who truly wants to do something about the problem. I don't think that's the case and the spiral is inevitable.
I have some other ideas but I'm not going to say it on a public forum.

Well, you're ideas go to waste if you won't share them....

I can only speak for the situation at Elbe, but during the summer, the ONLY person with enforcement ability is Nancy and the DNR cop that has a HUGE area to try to patrol and he's not outfitted to travel the trails. Nancy is gone much of the summer fighting fires and has little time to spend out on a trail waiting for someone to come by and break the rules. She's responsbile for much more than just the ORV trails. They tried last year to get the money to bring in 18 new trail stewards which would be specifically dedicated to working with the user groups and would have enforcement ability. However, it was voted down in the legislature so they didn't get to hire the additional staff. That's where it needs the extra money, to hire enough people to enforce. We didn't even have a focus group meeting for 8 months because Nancy wasn't available and she missed the last work party because she got called out to a fire. Without more people there's minimal enforcement ability.

Yes, I know, you're going to say, "then why make new rules if you can't enforce them anyway...?" I agree on that point.

So, since the option of having more enforcement, present an alternative that could be presented INSTEAD of restrictions. Don't give me this BS about not wanting to put it out on a public forum...

 

[crash2]

Lets work together here folks.....

Rick--with your interest in this are you going to the meeting?

 

[pokey]

This is a option that will work. Just because the people involved in these negotiations are too ignorant to think about ALL of the options doesn't mean it won't work. Because the DNR is unwilling to try something doesn't mean it won't work.
As i've said before it doesn't take much of a presence to make a differnce. If the DNR spent as much time on enforcement as they do talking about these restrictions it would have already made a difference. How does this take more money?
All it takes is someone from the DNR who truly wants to do something about the problem. I don't think that's the case and the spiral is inevitable.
I have some other ideas but I'm not going to say it on a public forum.

Ignorant? well thanks Rick, We represent our members first. We try to represent the sport as a whole but its our members that come to the meetings and give us direction and its their interest that we represent. If you want the represntation I suggest you join up or start your own org. and do all the leg work that we do.

 

[Gibby1]

I usually stay out of these threads but I guess I need to speak up. I had always suspected there were people working in the Background trying to get the DNR or shall we say the powers to be, to impose restrictions... So I guess I was wrong assuming it was the PNW4WDA as a group...So Again who is this group of influential people? Seems kind of cowardly to not even allow any discourse between us.

To my knowledge NO ONE was working behind the scenes with the DNR to impose any restrictions. I simply know that there are people who want to keep it as a SWB trail. They had nothing to do with the restriction but they're supportive of the restriction. There IS a lot of support out there for keeping the LWB vehicles off the busywild from within the 4x4 community.

Ditto on what Pokey said, neither the PNW4WDA nor Region 2 of the PNW4WDA has taken a position on this yet as there has not been an opportunity for full discusson.

 

[Lucas]

Lucas, I believe you're talking about the Gotcha trail. The trees are mostly gone due to harvesting a few years back. It's a 2wd trail right now and all the trees alongside the trail were cut about about 18" or so...

The trail i am referring to is more like a skidder trail (dont know if it was ever an actual orv trail as it was blocked off before I got to try it). If you were sitting at the bottom of the hill climb where i would assume the gatekeeper will be for the rainier vista crawl. There is an old skidder road off to the right into the trees(can hardly tell its there anymore). If I got to play god for a day i would head that way, down the valley, and back towards the busywild. I know the chances of new trails are highly unlikly to impossible. But hey, we can all dream right.

Selfish? The restrictions aren't being put on us by anyone in the four wheel drive community, they are being put into place by the DNR, I believe it is because of the problems with the fullsize rigs that destroy the trail system, which will eventually end up in closures if we can't get the renegades and newbies educated.

That point was directed towards fellow wheelers that were for the restriction because they wanted the super tight trail of days gone by. Not the DNR.

Sorry for the confusion.

 

[Binder]

Ignorant? well thanks Rick, We represent our members first.

I said an option that will work. Obviously this option WON'T work because it's not going to happen.

Well Jim I didn't specify that you or anyone else was ignorant but now that you bring it up.
If this isn't a ignorant comment then I don't know what is?

 

[Gibby1]

Well Jim I didn't specify that you or anyone else was ignorant but now that you bring it up.
If this isn't a ignorant comment then I don't know what is?

What it is, is reality not ignorance.

 

[Binder]

Rick--with your interest in this are you going to the meeting?

No, for a few reasons.......

 

[Dianamal77]

Most negotiations goes on at Focus meetings, the only reason this issue is so well known is that Gibby posted it up on the internet, which most ORV Reps don't do, things aren't done behind the scenes, it just seems that way because only 2 or 3 people attend focus meetings, and only 1% or 2% of the wheelers are involved in the political side of the sport.

Very well put. Gibby has done a GREAT job of communicating to the users of this forum the things happening at Elbe.

 

[Not Jobless]

The PNW4WDA has a long and strong working relationship with the DNR because for as long as I can remember we have been the ones doing the work to maintain the trails that we ALL get to enjoy.

I'll throw my 2 cents in here...while this thread may be about Elbe your comment above Jim has no meaning when it comes to Reiter. In fact, one of the meetings I had went to with the DNR and others at Reiter the PNW4WDA member that was there expresed very strongly that they, your org, did not support activity at Reiter because it was not an official ORV area.

This has left a lasting impression with me and I have yet to see the PNW4WDA do anything worthwhile for Reiter. You've been wheeling the PNW for how many years Jim? And it was just recently you wheeled Reiter. It seems all the active participation from the PNW4WDA goes to catering to the folks that like running Elbe, Evans and racing around barrels on flat land.

Why don't you PNW4WDA step up and something with a place worth wheelin...like Reiter maybe?

You want members? You want support? Then you had better start looking at supporting the most popular ORV area in Western Washington.

 

[megatoy66]

:corn:

 

[pokey]

I'll throw my 2 cents in here...while this thread may be about Elbe your comment above Jim has no meaning when it comes to Reiter. In fact, one of the meetings I had went to with the DNR and others at Reiter the PNW4WDA member that was there expresed very strongly that they, your org, did not support activity at Reiter because it was not an official ORV area.

This has left a lasting impression with me and I have yet to see the PNW4WDA do anything worthwhile for Reiter. You've been wheeling the PNW for how many years Jim? And it was just recently you wheeled Reiter. It seems all the active participation from the PNW4WDA goes to catering to the folks that like running Elbe, Evans and racing around barrels on flat land.

Why don't you PNW4WDA step up and something with a place worth wheelin...like Reiter maybe?

You want members? You want support? Then you had better start looking at supporting the most popular ORV area in Western Washington.

Well Brad you may and I say may have a valid point on reiter since its NOT a "official" ORV area. I do know for a fact that region one has been doing work there for years and well before all thiss bbs stuff so we are involved there. And without trying to hijack this thread we have been instrumental in a few areas that some people like to play Perhaps you have heard of some of these. Evans creek, Elbe hills, Tahuya, Walker valley, Naches trail, Kaner trail, Quartz mt. Trail, Buck meadows, Funny rocks, Bald mt, Bethel ridge, Little rattlesnake, Coppper city, Manashtash ridge, shoestring, Region 4 meadows, Tripod, Liberty, Rimrock, Beverly, Moses lakes, Sadie creek and the list goes on and on. These area most likely would not be here if not for the efforts of the PNW4WDA and its members and clubs. We are supporting the reiter area and have been working with the DNR for your area. Bottom line from them is they dont have enough money to go around and their focus is on Walker which is a "official" ORV area. They are working on Reiter but as you are well aware its ownership creates some issues. It is on the long term plan and be full aware that the PNW is and will be working with them to make it happen. When you say you havent seen anything worthwhile What do you mean? You have a couple of DNR people working for the area dont you? Your not locked out of the area are you? I wonder if that has anything to do with the fact that the ORV community does and has had representation on the NOVA and IAC funding groups(where the DNR gets its money) Oh and by the way Shes a long term PNW member belonging to one of our clubs. Truth is Brad you dont really know what we do and how much of a impact we have on our sport and our access to public lands. And by the way I think Evans creek is the #1 spot on the west side and Funnyrocks,bald mt. is the #1 in the state.

 

[pokey]

Well Jim I didn't specify that you or anyone else was ignorant but now that you bring it up.
If this isn't a ignorant comment then I don't know what is?

Hes just telling you what you need to hear and not what you want to hear. Having a leadership type of roll always sucks because everyone wants to kill the messenger when they bring bad news. Fact is were up to our necks fighting to maintain the lands we do have by just trying to abide by the laws in place. All this bickering and fingerpointing crap is just a huge waste of friggen time. I have very little time left for this BS since I just found out the other day that the trail my club has been working on for the last 5 years is about to go bye bye due to the fact that the road getting to it washed out last winter and now the fisheries dept. wants some big ass bridge built to "protect" the bulltrout and the forest service dosent want to spend the money so we stand a good chance of loosing the friggen trail. Even if we do manage to get them to fix the road it will have to go thru neppa and then have an EA done before any work can be done So were looking at 5 years or so to fix the bridge and then of course there will be more "issues" and Then another 5 years or so to finish fixing the trail IF we can get another grant since our current funding will be gone. So pardon me if I dont get to friggen worried about the differance between 109" and 112" on this one trail. This whole friggen mess with Elbe could have been very easily handled if people would do the right thing and work TOGETHER instead of trying to go around the process in place

 

[megatoy66]

Jim...it's time to have an ice cold beverage..sit down and take a break.....life is not so bad.

 

[pokey]

Jim...it's time to have an ice cold beverage..sit down and take a break.....life is not so bad.

well actually I am going to bed. But your right life isnt so bad however this BS arguing on the web when we should be working together REALLY FRIGGEN PISSES ME OFF I have much more pressing real problems to deal with to keep our trails open. This crap is a waste of valuable time

 

[megatoy66]

well actually I am going to bed. But your right life isnt so bad however this BS arguing on the web when we should be working together REALLY FRIGGEN PISSES ME OFF I have much more pressing real problems to deal with to keep our trails open. This crap is a waste of valuable time

Have a good night....we are only here for a little while. Relax damnit!

 

[Brian H]

Have a good night....we are only here for a little while. Relax damnit!

Is that all it takes?????Maybe i should try it.:eeek:

 

[mud4funtoy]

We all know that but I am not sure they(DNR) do. Many times when a trail gets rutted around a tree , almost anyone who goes around it can slide right into the tree. Doesn't matter how long the rig is. Then theres the argument about what if a rig has a 115" wb but the tires are the longest part of the rig. Or someone with a 109" wb with a long nose and tail that puts it at 120" overall length.

The width restriction I can understand, the WB restriction just doesn't make sense to me at all, and I fit in the restriction. Enforce the damage if that is whats going on. Fix the trail to limit any damage.

I have heard there is a bunch of rock on the busy for future work parties. Use it around the trees that are getting the most damage. Pile it around the base so that when someone slides toward the tree the rocks will stop the tires before the body hits the tree.

I also have a jeep that will fit the restrictions. I agree that the best thing we all could do is go up there and fix the trail so that every one could enjoy it. There should be a work party every weekend in August until we accomplish the needed repairs. And we should start doing what we can earlier on to help prepair for the work parties.

 

[mud4funtoy]

I agree. I also dont know how they would enforce it other then someone out there with a tape measure or jig or something. A lot of people out there wouldnt care about a sign saying, "no longer then 109" wheelbase", and there are quite a few that dont even know their wheelbase anyway.

I think in order to get a good debate for our side, we whould have to know the exact reason for the restriction, and the causes for their beliefs. Se we can have a rebutal to all of those.

Some ideas that have come to my mind on the subject. As for the land issue, When I started going to elbe all the holes around the trees/roots/obstacles, were CJ'ish length. A longer wheelbase rig (as I was in) could cruise right over/through, while the jeeps were fighting and digging bigger holes around the roots and such. If you only have shorter wheelbases those holes will continue to get worse in the same spots. The longer wheelbase helps even the terrain in those spots.

For the guys the are worried about loosing the tightness (thats a new word ) of the trail, because they built it that way. One point, Its hardly the same trail anyway, even from ten years ago, most the trail has been re-routed in some way. Is it not fun anymore or something? Sure, its not nearly as tight as I remember it being, but I think it is more challenging (minus he holes that have been re-routed around) now then before, during the rainy season anyway. And dont you think its kind of selfish to close a trail to anyone not in a cj, sami, or early short toy, just because you dont think its tight enough anymore. Wouldn't a better solution for you guys be to fight to open a new tight trail, then you would have that much more room to play, and wouldnt be hurting everyone else.

I know the DNR is opposed to new trails, ive had one in mind for a long time. Shoots off from the bottom of the Rainier Vista, there's an old trail there, and connects into the busywild, i think it'd be great. Hills, tight trees, but without a lot of the mudhole problems.

Just thought i would throw my two cents in. I plan on being there, I am an opinionated voice, but am just not very good at getting my points across. So i'll be there for moral support:awesomework:

I like your ideas. I hope you are coming to the meeting. I feel the same way as you but you say it better.

 

[mud4funtoy]

Lucs, I believe you're talking about the Gotcha trail. The trees are mostly gone due to harvesting a few years back. It's a 2wd trail right now and all the trees alongside the trail were cut about about 18" or so...

However, this is one of the line of thoughts that I like. Build a new trail WITH restrictions specifically for the SWB rigs again. Decommission the mainline and mainline extension and reclassify them as access roads. That would give us a significant amount of mileage to recover without having to ask for ADDitional mileage.

Then, let the busywild stay open to all vehicles but with an improved maintenance schedule.

Again I think we are getting some where good idea Gibby.
There's not anyone one that owns a small wheel base rig that wouldn't love a chance at a new Super tight trail. Busy would still need a lot of repair also.