Important new Busywild restriction update.

[mud4funtoy]

Well, you're ideas go to waste if you won't share them....

I can only speak for the situation at Elbe, but during the summer, the ONLY person with enforcement ability is Nancy and the DNR cop that has a HUGE area to try to patrol and he's not outfitted to travel the trails. Nancy is gone much of the summer fighting fires and has little time to spend out on a trail waiting for someone to come by and break the rules. She's responsbile for much more than just the ORV trails. They tried last year to get the money to bring in 18 new trail stewards which would be specifically dedicated to working with the user groups and would have enforcement ability. However, it was voted down in the legislature so they didn't get to hire the additional staff. That's where it needs the extra money, to hire enough people to enforce. We didn't even have a focus group meeting for 8 months because Nancy wasn't available and she missed the last work party because she got called out to a fire. Without more people there's minimal enforcement ability.

Yes, I know, you're going to say, "then why make new rules if you can't enforce them anyway...?" I agree on that point.

So, since the option of having more enforcement, present an alternative that could be presented INSTEAD of restrictions. Don't give me this BS about not wanting to put it out on a public forum...

Dale is right. there was a point that was 2 years long that thier wasnt even a dnr cop at all and the one they have now has to cover a huge area all the way from Tiger mountain to elbe and over to Tahua. I only saw the Dnr cop 1 time in eight years. Nancy will write tickets if she is there and in the summer she will be fighting forest fires as stated by gibby.

I would be more worried about the swb people that want the trail all for them selves. They will take pictures of you and your Rig and they will send them to the Authorities. This is a comon practice. Beware of the SWB person with a smile taking a picture of your Lwb rig stuck on the trail.

 

[mud4funtoy]

To my knowledge NO ONE was working behind the scenes with the DNR to impose any restrictions. I simply know that there are people who want to keep it as a SWB trail. They had nothing to do with the restriction but they're supportive of the restriction. There IS a lot of support out there for keeping the LWB vehicles off the busywild from within the 4x4 community.

Ditto on what Pokey said, neither the PNW4WDA nor Region 2 of the PNW4WDA has taken a position on this yet as there has not been an opportunity for full discusson.

Everyone is welcome to their opinion. I am going to spend my time doing what I am good at. Getting the word out ! I plan on spending the 1st 10 days of January doing that. I will be Going out handing more fliers out and talking with people and businesses. Doing so will result in letting both oppositions know about the meeting the ones for and against. Personally I don't see how wheel base will change the impact of that trail. But all i can do is get the word out and show up.
IF THE PNW IS IN SUPPORT OF THIS THEN THEY WILL COME WITH MANY PEOPLE TO SUPPORT IT
if you oppose it you better do the same.

 

[Binder]

I would be more worried about the swb people that want the trail all for them selves. They will take pictures of you and your Rig and they will send them to the Authorities. This is a comon practice. Beware of the SWB person with a smile taking a picture of your Lwb rig stuck on the trail.

So? Let them take pictures. A picture like that isn't enforcable.

 

[Not Jobless]

And by the way I think Evans creek is the #1 spot on the west side and Funnyrocks,bald mt. is the #1 in the state.

I think you are misinformed due to the lack of presence at Reiter.

You guys do work at Reiter...since when? Never seen your group at Reiter except maybe at the annual clean-up.

All I am saying Jim is that you get up on your soapbox and preach about "supporting" but I never see you folks making a presence out there. Never seen ya at an RTW meeting or work party either...where's the support going?

Edit: Just FYI...I'm only talking about Reiter.

 

[Gibby1]

Dale is right. there was a point that was 2 years long that thier wasnt even a dnr cop at all and the one they have now has to cover a huge area all the way from Tiger mountain to elbe and over to Tahua. I only saw the Dnr cop 1 time in eight years. Nancy will write tickets if she is there and in the summer she will be fighting forest fires as stated by gibby.

I would be more worried about the swb people that want the trail all for them selves. They will take pictures of you and your Rig and they will send them to the Authorities. This is a comon practice. Beware of the SWB person with a smile taking a picture of your Lwb rig stuck on the trail.

I don't buy that picture part, at least I've never seen it and it wouldn't do any good anyway. I'm talking only about the SWB fighting to keep what they can they what vs the LWB people fighting to keep what they want. The mix is supposed to come with the variety of trails in an ORV park since no one trail can adequately serve everyone.

 

[Gibby1]

Everyone is welcome to their opinion. I am going to spend my time doing what I am good at. Getting the word out ! I plan on spending the 1st 10 days of January doing that. I will be Going out handing more fliers out and talking with people and businesses. Doing so will result in letting both oppositions know about the meeting the ones for and against. Personally I don't see how wheel base will change the impact of that trail. But all i can do is get the word out and show up.
IF THE PNW IS IN SUPPORT OF THIS THEN THEY WILL COME WITH MANY PEOPLE TO SUPPORT IT
if you oppose it you better do the same.

A long wheel base vehicle by it's very nature, cannot turn as tight as a SWB vehicle. The end result is that they either made the corner wider or they pivot off the trees or stumps. Neither of these are considered acceptable to the DNR in terms of maintaining the integrity of the trail.

For discussion's sake, use the example of a Toyota pick up short box vs a toyota pickup double cab long box. Put them both around the same tight corner and look at how they each drive it. Let's even equip them the same with front and rear lockers since that's what the busy requires, and just see how each manages the corner and which one is more likely to have to dig into the side of the trail or rub up against trees and stumps to get through. Oh yeah, to keep things fair, both have full bodies.

It's not about the LWB not caring about the body it's about the fact that they have to rub up against trees with their body. It would be different if they were rubbing up against rocks. Then the body damage would be irrelevant.

 

[TreeClimber]

Gibby I'm coming to this meeting. I'm curious as to what exactly are the resources that everyone is / is not afraid of. Are the trees that are 'rub-able' considered 'lost' already? I ask this because they aren't harvestable, correct? I just get this feeling, that it's not so much about the lost trees, or the dug out hole, but more so about the integrity of the trail itself? And don't misunderstand me, I'm a wrangler guy. I'm short wheelbase, reasonably narrow, and locked front and rear. I can run whatever restrictions that are put into effect. I'm even mostly streetlegal. But I keep reading between the lines that it's less about whats environmentally happening, and more about the politics of 'this is what we should do' for the future of the Busy. Tell me if I'm wrong. And I STILL think that you should PM me with WHOM you feel are wanting to install those restrictive measures I asked you earlier.

 

[Jaydog]

I think the whole thing started as a way to keep the fullsize rigs out of the busy, due to what happened last year.

 

[pokey]

Everyone is welcome to their opinion. I am going to spend my time doing what I am good at. Getting the word out ! I plan on spending the 1st 10 days of January doing that. I will be Going out handing more fliers out and talking with people and businesses. Doing so will result in letting both oppositions know about the meeting the ones for and against. Personally I don't see how wheel base will change the impact of that trail. But all i can do is get the word out and show up.
IF THE PNW IS IN SUPPORT OF THIS THEN THEY WILL COME WITH MANY PEOPLE TO SUPPORT IT
if you oppose it you better do the same.

Great post Steve while some of us are working to unite the users you seem to be doing a great job of deviding us and pitting us against each other in this tit for tat crap. Gtreat use of our resources:awesomework:

 

[Not Jobless]

Great post Steve while some of us are working to unite the users you seem to be doing a great job of deviding us and pitting us against each other in this tit for tat crap. Gtreat use of our resources:awesomework:

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and ideas, whether you agree with them or not.

It's this "holier than thou" menatlity that many have when it comes to supporting our community that leaves a less than positive impression.

 

[Wildman1]

Beware of the SWB person with a smile taking a picture of your Lwb rig stuck on the trail.

Now I don't know you from sqwat but making a comment like that is not the way to win over support for your cause from us SWB people. Hell I am very much a SWB person and can be a little LWB biased. My comments have been know to sound something like this " Those stupid rednecks in a Full Size Chevy Pickup with a beer in one hand and a chainsaw in the other" is why our trails are now paved roads instead of tight technical trails. Now that doesn't sound very nice either does it? So if you want the support of all of us wheelers how about not bashing the SWB people??

Part of this whole thing goes back to a discussion we had about a month ago on here. The trails should not be built for what you build rather the rig you BUILD should be BUILT for the trails where you live. The PNW mainly has trails for SWB rigs. To build a LWB rig and then expect to have places to wheel is just not thinking clearly.

Now for me I don't see the sense in a buggy, now because I have never driven one that might be part of it. It took 5 years for the TJ to grow on me before I liked it. My point? If I lived somewhere that had 10 months of warm weather I could see having a buggy, but here in the PNW it flipping RAINS!!! And I am too old and too stoved up to want to ride around in something I can't stay dry in. But too each his own.

Back to lerk mode.

 

[pokey]

I think you are misinformed due to the lack of presence at Reiter.

You guys do work at Reiter...since when? Never seen your group at Reiter except maybe at the annual clean-up.

All I am saying Jim is that you get up on your soapbox and preach about "supporting" but I never see you folks making a presence out there. Never seen ya at an RTW meeting or work party either...where's the support going?

Edit: Just FYI...I'm only talking about Reiter.

Again Brad you point out that you dont know what we are doing even after I spell it out for you. I know reiter is popular in the north end because its basicly all you have up there anymore(legal). So instead of beating down the PNW why dont you and your buddies join up get involved and help us keep what little we have left.

 

[pokey]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and ideas, whether you agree with them or not.

It's this "holier than thou" menatlity that many have when it comes to supporting our community that leaves a less than positive impression.

and when have I ever said that we shouldnt ALL be working together? This just proves again Brad that you read what you want to hear so it quantifies your lack of willingness to join up and get involved. :awesomework:

 

[Not Jobless]

Again Brad you point out that you dont know what we are doing even after I spell it out for you. I know reiter is popular in the north end because its basicly all you have up there anymore(legal). So instead of beating down the PNW why dont you and your buddies join up get involved and help us keep what little we have left.

You're right Jim, I don't know what you are doing at Reiter because I never see your ORG out there.

Please, for all us locals, tell us what the PNW4WDA has done at Reiter in the last 12 months and what your plans are for the next 12?

Or do you have to be a member in order to be well informed within the community.

I'm looking for answers and I'll I ever get is the "get invloved" speech.

 

[pokey]

You're right Jim, I don't know what you are doing at Reiter because I never see your ORG out there.

Please, for all us locals, tell us what the PNW4WDA has done at Reiter in the last 12 months and what your plans are for the next 12?

Or do you have to be a member in order to be well informed within the community.

I'm looking for answers and I'll I ever get is the "get invloved" speech.

Why dont you ask the Members that play and work there as well. We have several on this bbs and some of them were just up there surveying the damage on izzy this last weekend. I cant help it if you dont notice these things or understand how all of the funding works. off to work I go:cheer:

 

[Gibby1]

Gibby I'm coming to this meeting. I'm curious as to what exactly are the resources that everyone is / is not afraid of. Are the trees that are 'rub-able' considered 'lost' already? I ask this because they aren't harvestable, correct? I just get this feeling, that it's not so much about the lost trees, or the dug out hole, but more so about the integrity of the trail itself? And don't misunderstand me, I'm a wrangler guy. I'm short wheelbase, reasonably narrow, and locked front and rear. I can run whatever restrictions that are put into effect. I'm even mostly streetlegal. But I keep reading between the lines that it's less about whats environmentally happening, and more about the politics of 'this is what we should do' for the future of the Busy. Tell me if I'm wrong.

Let me see if I can explain this.
1) Everything inside the "trail corridor" is considered dead as far as the harvesting process goes so the "logging people in the DNR don't care so much about those trees. The logging end of things to care if we decide to put in a new trail as those trees are harvestable. We're more likely to get a new trail when there's a harvest going on and logging company can remove the trees that they want from a potential trail. In fact, we're waiting for the next logging operation up there to harvest more trees so that the campground can be expanded.
2) I'm going to quote from an email from Nancy.

The Busywild was designed as a short wheelbase, narrow vehicle trail. Users tell me repeatedly how they love winding through the trees etc... on this trail. The damage being done to the trail and the trees as bigger and bigger vehicles use this trail is really taking a toll on the resources as well as the trail. On top of this I see people in full size vehicles heading to the trail. I tell them the trail is not intended for vehicles their size, and they respond they don't care what happens to their rig.
Nothing has been written in stone, but I am glad I am finally getting the input I have been asking for all along. Reality is on the Busywild that if changes are not made, the trail will lose many of the characteristics that the users claim to want like tight turns. No trail can be everything to everyone. The DNR can not provide that.

The numbers discussed at the last meeting may not be the final size restriction, but they have become a valuable starting point. Regardless of what is adopted, I will continue to strive to develop more challenges for larger vehicles on other trails to keep Elbe interesting to the variety of users seeking off-road 4x4 experiences.

3) Luckily at Elbe, we don't have a lot of resource issues related to run off, protecting habitats etc, that other areas have. What's she's referring to with the resources is the loss of dirt around the roots of the trees and the damage to the root structure of the trees. This results in the trees dying prematurely or become unstable. This affects the integrity of the trail, which includes the tight nature and the natural esthetics (you can't just cut all the trees 8' up and leave the stumps- it would be plain ugly).

I grabbed a few pics from various reports to show you the types of things that Nancy does not consider acceptable. I know a few of you will recognize rigs and I'm not picking on anyone, just looking for examples.

Driving up on obstacles on the side of the trail. It should be obvious in this pic how the damage is done when it's done over and over, regardless of how much fun it might be.

This is our buddy that caused all the comotion...

This is not acceptable in any size rig.

These aren't particular to full size rigs, more that I wanted to show the TYPE of resource damage that Nancy is concerned about.

 

[Not Jobless]

Why dont you ask the Members that play and work there as well. We have several on this bbs and some of them were just up there surveying the damage on izzy this last weekend. I cant help it if you dont notice these things or understand how all of the funding works. off to work I go:cheer:

So are you going to answer the question or just avoid it?

How about you point out who the PNW4WDA members are? And why are they not communictaing what the PNW4WDA is up too on local BBS's?

I don't see anything on the RTW bbs in regards the PNW4...

 

[Not Jobless]

I grabbed a few pics from various reports to show you the types of things that Nancy does not consider acceptable. I know a few of you will recognize rigs and I'm not picking on anyone, just looking for examples.

I hate to point out the obvious, but that looks like typical PNW wheelin.

 

[wkndtoy]

Attitude!!!!

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and ideas, whether you agree with them or not.

It's this "holier than thou" menatlity that many have when it comes to supporting our community that leaves a less than positive impression.

Great post Steve while some of us are working to unite the users you seem to be doing a great job of deviding us and pitting us against each other in this tit for tat crap. Gtreat use of our resources:awesomework:

Processes and politics will kill the sport of four wheeling, the attitude towards each other on here are what will kill the opportunity for the PNW4WDA to grow to the point it needs to be more effective. The PNW4WDA need new member with new ideas, you cannot get that with the mentality being shown, it's the same sh!t that was happening ten years ago.. Wake up folks or change hobbies!!!

I remember everyone saying get involved, get you opinion heard

 

[CHOP SHOP]

So are you going to answer the question or just avoid it?

How about you point out who the PNW4WDA members are? And why are they not communictaing what the PNW4WDA is up too on local BBS's?

I don't see anything on the RTW bbs in regards the PNW4...

set up barrels, then youll see some support. then agian you might not want thier support at reiter.