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Manastash meadows up by the rocks.

i think the term buggy is just a generalization of highly capable wheeling rigs. The old generalization was jeeps. Even though they weren't all jeeps, and even though now a days it's not all buggies. The point is their word for capable offroad vehicles is buggy. toyotas, jeeps, chevy, ford, all fall under the term buggy as far as the ranger is concerned. the issue here shouldn't be what terminology is being used. If they shut something off to buggy's best believe no jeeps or toyotas are allowed either. No one is saying hey let's kick out buggies only. It's an unfortunate stereotype with Buggy written all over it, but that's a null point, it is what it is, what can we do to fix the real problem?

Education will be the best way to fix these kinds of problems. even then there will always be "that guy". I know for a fact there is not enough education. When i got into wheeling no one talks about being a responsible wheeler. no one discuss' trail etiquite. go to an event, no one promotes responsible wheeling. People don't learn well from lynch mobs hunting them down. they need to be talked to rationally, and without fear of reprocutions. Hell i never knew how much passion is behind someone doing brodies in a field til all the recent threads on taking pictures and turning people in. The word must be spread, and not just on here. i'll bet this site represents less thatn 25% of people who wheel in WA, and of that 25% how many actually read all this crap? not many.

the fool who caused this damage is either "that guy" or uneducated. to the unknowing there is a blurry line between tearing up a meadow and having fun. proper trail markers would help a lot for the uneducated for "that guy" the only thing to fix him would be consequences.

get some hunting cameras that take pictures of stuff that moves, put em out where no one should be wheeling, and then if someone goes there, you should have their picture. post a warning sign of actions beign recorded at the trail head. still, there is nothing to stop "that guy", even shutting everything down, making wheeling illegal, and confiscating rigs, that guy will always be there. hunt "that guy's" ass down, put someone under the bus and make an example. no one ever gets caught. if no one gets caught people will continue to think, "**** it who cares, they'll never catch me"

bottom line, the problem isn't Mikki, Jim, Murkman, or anyone with the wrong terminology. the problem is us not educating and enforcing. instead of the next clean up day, make an education day. People who sell the parts that are used to build these rigs should also participate in education if they want to stay in business. People buy **** at the store, then bolt it on, build a rig, and go tear **** up, possibly unknowingly, and the guy who sold the part doesn't care what they do with it when they walk out the door. I've never once ever been offered a lesson on being a responsible wheeler. If no one knows the rules, how can they be followed? more people probably know how to get to reiter, than know to stay on the trail.

that's all for now:beer:
 
so we need a few of those flexible brown "no vehicle" signs in there. Those are very effective IMO, and they dont make good camp fire wood. :redneck:
im sure they cost like $10,000 dollars a piece, and i dont have much to offer financially, but let me know if i can help plant some signs anywhere. Ive got post hole diggers and a couple buddies with way too much time on their hands (centralgrand:kiss:)
 
so we need a few of those flexible brown "no vehicle" signs in there. Those are very effective IMO, and they dont make good camp fire wood. :redneck:
im sure they cost like $10,000 dollars a piece, and i dont have much to offer financially, but let me know if i can help plant some signs anywhere. Ive got post hole diggers and a couple buddies with way too much time on their hands (centralgrand:kiss:)

They are known as carsonites and are driven into the earth with a driver built for them. I believe a crew was up that way this past weekend doing just that in the area.
 
People who sell the parts that are used to build these rigs should also participate in education if they want to stay in business.
:

I agree fully 200 percent:awesomework:

I am constantly getting a new memeber of the crews rig done and then explaining whats "propper" the first time out on the trail. Some of these guys dont have a clue. GREAT guys, not inbred beered up losers, but good folks that just dont know anything else. I will explain the treesaver deal, staying on the trail, no 2WD roostertails, ETC. Most are not noobs by anymeans. Most are dragrace guys, bike guys, rodders, muscle car guys, normal gearheads like us. They just need to be shown the ropes in a non threatning way. Every person I have corrected on something always asks why and cooperates just fine. Usually to correct someone else later.:cool:

We just dont need to be tattling folks off and making a big deal out of it. It just draws bad attention and teaches people to withdraw from a group such as here instaed of participating.:cheer:

Anyone who is not on the net and forums like this just dont have or want to have a clue. These guys are still good folks with wheelers.:awesomework:

But still Im locked out of the elbe threads by a guy that only educates not wheels.:rolleyes:
 
Ive got post hole diggers and a couple buddies with way too much time on their hands (centralgrand:kiss:)

:haha: Get your work done early sometime.... you'll have just as much time:fawkdancesmiley:

..... and yes I'd be happy to. Maybe I couldn't stop it, but I'll be happy to fix it:awesomework:
 
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I try and stay out of these little pointless discussions as they are just that...pointless. BUT:

My rig weighs 4600lbs give or take, has a wide stance, and is "capable". It has such a torqued motor that even with the auto (modded) I turn the tires on moist to wet dirt. My rear axle is welded, and my front is a tight power-lock. My hood line of sight is slightly higher than it should be due to flat rate leaf springs in the rear. This makes cresting and off camber to the passenger side approaches hard to "guess" or see...

We all have been there...in a spot where we don't know too well the trails, turn onto what "looks like a trail" and traverse it. About half way through you realize that it probably isn't an actual trail, but a bypass or go-around for something...so you continue on your way.

I am all for the investigation of the meadowed area in the last photo...that looks to be plainly wrong doing! Though everything else pictured looks to be MEH to me...not worth preaching about.

As mentioned above my vehicle is more clue leaving than one would think...It is heavy, wider than PNW4WDA "regulations", and definitely leaves a foot print of its where abouts.
 
You clowns sure have your panties all wadded up tight over the whole "buggy" thing Get over and focus on whats the real issue here and thats people tearing **** up and all of the associated issues that go with that.

The associated issue, And what is disturbing to me, Is a LEO that is making judgements without clear and irrefutable evidence. They write out a whole report based on speculation then present it as fact:looser:

Is Murkman on here to shine up his badge? :rolleyes:
 
The associated issue, And what is disturbing to me, Is a LEO that is making judgements without clear and irrefutable evidence. They write out a whole report based on speculation then present it as fact:looser:

Is Murkman on here to shine up his badge? :rolleyes:

What report? We merely make a mental note of another needless project. Then line up some volunteers to fix the damage. Reports come with ciatations.

What badge? Do I need to quote some movie at this point?
 
Do you or Mikki still interpret the tracks as "buggy"?

It was my comments to Mikki based on observations of damage we had seen earlier on the trail that the meadow damage was most likely caused by a buggy. The earlier damage traversed terrain that only the most capable of rigs could traverse. The tracks on the upper meadow damage looked similar. Mikki merely used the term I used to explain to Kat what we had seen. Kat had a volunteer group headed thru the area on the next weekend.

It was decided this morning that we will not identify suspected user groups in anyway, shape or form. The term shall be user. If we had caught said "user" we would not of spoke of it at all. We do not identify cited users. The enforcement action is the only action taken. Education is the preferred method of enforcement as we very rarely find someone who admits to knowing better. Everybody that gets caught pleads that they have no idea they can't do what they did. "Where's the sign" most point out.

So to answer your question no we believe the damage was done by a user or a group or users. Not a buggy.
 
It was my comments to Mikki based on observations of damage we had seen earlier on the trail that the meadow damage was most likely caused by a buggy. The earlier damage traversed terrain that only the most capable of rigs could traverse. The tracks on the upper meadow damage looked similar. Mikki merely used the term I used to explain to Kat what we had seen. Kat had a volunteer group headed thru the area on the next weekend.

It was decided this morning that we will not identify suspected user groups in anyway, shape or form. The term shall be user. If we had caught said "user" we would not of spoke of it at all. We do not identify cited users. The enforcement action is the only action taken. Education is the preferred method of enforcement as we very rarely find someone who admits to knowing better. Everybody that gets caught pleads that they have no idea they can't do what they did. "Where's the sign" most point out.

So to answer your question no we believe the damage was done by a user or a group or users. Not a buggy.

well said:awesomework:
 
It was my comments to Mikki based on observations of damage we had seen earlier on the trail that the meadow damage was most likely caused by a buggy. The earlier damage traversed terrain that only the most capable of rigs could traverse. The tracks on the upper meadow damage looked similar. Mikki merely used the term I used to explain to Kat what we had seen. Kat had a volunteer group headed thru the area on the next weekend.

It was decided this morning that we will not identify suspected user groups in anyway, shape or form. The term shall be user. If we had caught said "user" we would not of spoke of it at all. We do not identify cited users. The enforcement action is the only action taken. Education is the preferred method of enforcement as we very rarely find someone who admits to knowing better. Everybody that gets caught pleads that they have no idea they can't do what they did. "Where's the sign" most point out.

So to answer your question no we believe the damage was done by a user or a group or users. Not a buggy.

Thanks for admitting your wrong. and maybe learning from this experience. If you don't have hard evidence you don't have ****.

Keep up the good work :awesomework:
 
perfect, now we all are on the same page, a little communication goes a long way. these people are here to help us, we have so little representation, we are lucky they are here willing to communicate and help us users. THANK YOU!! Lets get some results, when is the sign party?:D
 
I saw these tracks on Saturday afternoon of Memorial day weekend coming back down from Tripod. At that time they were not fresh. The spot off the trail that they are in is clearly not a trail but just an opening in the trees with grass.
 
I saw these tracks on Saturday afternoon of Memorial day weekend coming back down from Tripod. At that time they were not fresh. The spot off the trail that they are in is clearly not a trail but just an opening in the trees with grass.

Notice the type of tire or "track trend"?
 
I saw these tracks on Saturday afternoon of Memorial day weekend coming back down from Tripod. At that time they were not fresh. The spot off the trail that they are in is clearly not a trail but just an opening in the trees with grass.
thats what i thought based on the pics above....
 
I already sent her an email asking a few friendly questions...I will let you know if I hear anything. :beer:

I got an email back from Mikki today...

Mikki Douglass said:
Hi Bryan! Thanks for letting me know this was even happening!

Here is a letter for the 4x4 forum. I don't know how this started, and I can't imagine saying "@sshole" but I am not going to argue with anyone. Here are the facts as I know them.... Oh, and the damage is located up the 4W307 approximately 1 mile on the left. You can't miss it (out of the Manastash Campground).

------------------

Hi Everyone,

It seems that I am involved in a bit of a firestorm and didn
 
Just a miss use of a word--no biggy in my book. So can we stop thrown crap at each other and maybe do something productive torwards maybe helping our sport/working together?
 

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