Mountain Side Ownership.

[AMFJ]

As to contributory negligence----outside my area of expertise. I'm tax/business.


As to "all you could lose is the $1000". Nothing is guaranteed. There are always ways to "pierce the corporate veil"--which basically leaves you naked.

Obviously, I can't give legal advice on here, and am not. Just know this isn't going to be easy. Like I said, I would likely be interested--once all of the details are ironed out.

Seriously, the thing that worries me the most in all of this is the potential SEC requirements. It doesn't take much for this to be deemed a public offering, and if it does--the cost are going to go through the roof (as is the liability).

Unfortunately for the owner, I'm not sure how you get to the next step for even a reasonable amount of cost. Hopefully you have some attorney friends who are experienced in this area. Otherwise, it could get out of hand in a hurry---and that's a shame because I really like what you are trying to do here.

 

[CheapJ7]

As far as guest go. I can understand not inviting every one of your wheeling buddies. But what about immediate family. Wife and kids.

I know my family isn't goint to sue me, but the notion of an angry wife that got injured would worry other owners i'm sure.

 

[rock yuppie]

As to contributory negligence----outside my area of expertise. I'm tax/business.


As to "all you could lose is the $1000". Nothing is guaranteed. There are always ways to "pierce the corporate veil"--which basically leaves you naked.

Obviously, I can't give legal advice on here, and am not. Just know this isn't going to be easy. Like I said, I would likely be interested--once all of the details are ironed out.

Seriously, the thing that worries me the most in all of this is the potential SEC requirements. It doesn't take much for this to be deemed a public offering, and if it does--the cost are going to go through the roof (as is the liability).

Unfortunately for the owner, I'm not sure how you get to the next step for even a reasonable amount of cost. Hopefully you have some attorney friends who are experienced in this area. Otherwise, it could get out of hand in a hurry---and that's a shame because I really like what you are trying to do here.

Assume to role of owner hear for me. You seem to be very familiar with Alabama laws and business requirement. How would you set this up to provide the wheelers that want to buy in a way to wheel the property anytime they want without it getting bogged down in government red tape?[size=10pt][size=10pt][size=10pt][size=10pt][size=10pt][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size]

 

[AMFJ]

Honestly? I'd raise the gate prices enough to cover the extra insurance needed to let me sleep comfortably at night. I would also do a lot of asset protection planning with an attorney. Find an attorney who has helped form hunting clubs. You likely won't find many that have dealt with off-road parks, but in Alabama, you will find some that have set up hunting clubs. The risks are close between the two.

If the liability is fixed through a proper set up entity and insurance, for anyone new coming in, $1,000 is not that big of a loss if everything goes badly. If a new member sees things being handled badly--they will bail in a heartbeat. No new member is going to risk their financial future for a hobby. Or honetly, if everyone starting fighting, I'd personally walk for peace of mind. It's a hobby, if it isn't fun anymore I need a new hobby.

For you the owner, if everythings goes badly, yes you made $200,000--but you have lost your land, and probably will spend a large amount of money in legal fees. As my grandfather says, "they are not making any more land--keep what you got". Also, if things start to go badly (fighting amongst the owners, tax issues, etc. etc.), you are going to have a hard time just walking away. It's your baby. Money over the years may be replaced, but your attachment to the property can't be. Even if that $200,000 did represent a huge profit for you, you couldn't spend it (unless you didn't own the land at all anymore) because you would always have to be afraid of what was coming and that you may need that money.

Doing this idea fixes one problem (maybe), but it is going to open the door to so many more. The biggest being you are going from having one nagging wife (the insurance company) to 200 nagging wives plus the original nagging wife. People follow rules (mostly) when they can be thrown out, but you can't throw an owner out. At least not easily.

 

[AMFJ]

Just wondering, there are several of these parks in Alabama---have you spoke with their owners about what they are doing? You guys may be "competition" for the off-roaders, but you should also be the greatest source of information for each other. Particularly if you guys band together kind of, and go to one insurance company in a "give us a deal or we walk" kind of way. I would think you guys would be an insurance salesman's dream come true (unless you have all had large number of claims in the past).

 

[rock yuppie]

I am not 100% percent sure that you understand our intentions. I don't understand why you think I will have 200 wife's verse one with the insurance company. What does selling the land to a business have to do with me needing to keep the money put away because you would always have to be afraid of what was coming and that you may need that money? How does raising the gate fee's reduce my personal exposure? Have you ever tried to price shop an insurance company? I have talked to other park owners and found some out there don't even have insurance which would scare me to death. Others have it but it is so fun of loop hole that they only have a fault since of security. And some may not be able to afford to keep their gates open much longer.

One of the biggest lessons in this chess game of life is that out of three different types of legal professionals, ( legal, realestate and Accounting / Tax) I get three very different set of thoughts. No wonder our country is going broke! [size=10pt][size=10pt][size=10pt][size=10pt][size=10pt][size=10pt][size=10pt][size=10pt][size=10pt][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size]

 

[TacomaJD]

No matter which way you turn, there's always gonna seem to be some sort of negative side with risk and chance....dammit, this is all making my head hurt. :****:

 

[bradzuki]

I say just put up big ass "No Trespassing" signs everywhere. Then if someone tries to sue, you have them arrested for trespassing.

 

[AMFJ]

The nagging wife comment means when you have "200 owners" you can expect a bunch of in fighting. Everyone has an opinion and "they are an owner" so they expect to get their way. You being the person who put this all together---you can bet your last dollar you will get the majority of phone calls/emails with complaints about the other owners. After all, good chance you will be the only one a good number of the new owners will know.

it isn't like you are selling this and walking away (unless of course, you are selling this and walking away). If so, then what you are doing is fine. You won't have liability because you won't be an owner.

The $200K comment was, if/when a lawsuit comes, you are going to be the one everyone again looks to. Also, the lawyer representing the plaintiff knows you took $200K out of this deal, and he is going to point to you big time looking for a payday (unless someone much wealthier happens to be in the group). I damn sure wouldn't want to be the deep pocket in this venture.

There is no perfect way to do this. If you are looking for some way to do this so you feel 100% comfortable that you are protected---sell the property and walk away. That would be it. Other than that, hold on, pray and do some serious personal asset protection with a good lawyer. Do it now.

I've seen negotations with insurance companies. Some times it works, sometimes they tell you to go F yourself. Never know until you try.

 

[TacomaJD]

I say just put up big ass "No Trespassing" signs everywhere. Then if someone tries to sue, you have them arrested for trespassing.

Damn skippy

 

[Bronco Buster]

Why would it even need to be a company. Why couldn't it just be a private park. Private land if it is only open to the owners. It would be no different than uncle John playing in the mud hole in his pastier.

Why would they all have to be equal owners? If it is private it is private whether you own 1% or 20% of it. No one would have to know who owned how much. Also what if an owner wanted out could he sell to just anyone or would it have to be approved by all other owners. What would stop someone from buying a piece every time one came up for sale?

I also agree with danb303 not all Lawyers are bad just like not all wheelers are loud drunk and obnoxious.

 

[TacomaJD]

Why would it even need to be a company. Why couldn't it just be a private park. Private land if it is only open to the owners. It would be no different than uncle John playing in the mud hole in his pastier.

Why would they all have to be equal owners? If it is private it is private whether you own 1% or 20% of it. No one would have to know who owned how much. Also what if an owner wanted out could he sell to just anyone or would it have to be approved by all other owners. What would stop someone from buying a piece every time one came up for sale?

I also agree with danb303 not all Lawyers are bad just like not all wheelers are loud drunk and obnoxious.

I imagine he's looking at it like if he were to keep the deed in his name, start a private club, sell memberships, and one of the members got hurt they can still sue him (the landowner)...wouldn't be much different, if any different than having it open for public use.

 

[kid rok]

Well I think I will open a corporation and let my corporation by my share. Since I am a corporation no one will be able to sue me personally. Plus I will then sell time share portions of the coorporation to other wheelers so they become members through my coorporation and can wheel at the park. In turn I figure I should be able to make a return off the initial investment in the park. :flipper:

 

[trucker]

Well I think I will open a corporation and let my corporation by my share. Since I am a corporation no one will be able to sue me personally. Plus I will then sell time share portions of the coorporation to other wheelers so they become members through my coorporation and can wheel at the park. In turn I figure I should be able to make a return off the initial investment in the park. :flipper:

this kind of statement, kidding or not, is one of the many reasons I can not give a definite in or out yet. All I can say is interested pending more info.

 

[TBItoy]

I've seen it mentioned several times, but no conclusive answer.

How do Choccolocco, Hawk Pride, Crusher Ridge, Hale Mtn, Gray Rock, and Morris Mountain stay open? (all in Alabama)

Not to mention Golden Mountain, Mayhem ORV, WITC, Wooly's (all privately owned parks in TN)

Do the owners just assume more risk?

The only owners I've been around/rode with/hung out with were Trey at Choccolocco and Marvin at Mayhem, and lawsuits/injury/liability never seemed to be much a concern...?

 

[mrdrinksalil]

The whole guest thing is what kills this. A "guest" includes everyone you bring in that park besides yourself. Including your family or others riding in your rig. No one is going to want to be a memeber if they can't bring their wife or buddy.

As for the insurance end of all this, if you can't find an insurance company to insure the park for a reasonable price without unrealistic requests. Maybe it's a better investment to have a laywer on retainer. I also agree with raising gate fees. Or even make it a member based place to ride with a decent membership fee that covers the insurance and or laywer. Then you can be selective about members, still own the land, protected by the LLC.

$250/year x 200 members = $50,000

That should be more than enough to cover expenses, you are protected through an LLC, complex waiver the member signs, your laywer is on retainer, you still own the land, you are able to easily get rid of members that dont play by the rules.

 

[zukiscott]

The whole guest thing is what kills this. A "guest" includes everyone you bring in that park besides yourself. Including your family or others riding in your rig. No one is going to want to be a memeber if they can't bring their wife or buddy.

As for the insurance end of all this, if you can't find an insurance company to insure the park for a reasonable price without unrealistic requests. Maybe it's a better investment to have a laywer on retainer. I also agree with raising gate fees. Or even make it a member based place to ride with a decent membership fee that covers the insurance and or laywer. Then you can be selective about members, still own the land, protected by the LLC.

$250/year x 200 members = $50,000

That should be more than enough to cover expenses, you are protected through an LLC, complex waiver the member signs, your laywer is on retainer, you still own the land, you are able to easily get rid of members that dont play by the rules.

DAMN I like the sound of this plan right here yall

 

[TacomaJD]

The whole guest thing is what kills this. A "guest" includes everyone you bring in that park besides yourself. Including your family or others riding in your rig. No one is going to want to be a memeber if they can't bring their wife or buddy.

As for the insurance end of all this, if you can't find an insurance company to insure the park for a reasonable price without unrealistic requests. Maybe it's a better investment to have a laywer on retainer. I also agree with raising gate fees. Or even make it a member based place to ride with a decent membership fee that covers the insurance and or laywer. Then you can be selective about members, still own the land, protected by the LLC.

$250/year x 200 members = $50,000

That should be more than enough to cover expenses, you are protected through an LLC, complex waiver the member signs, your laywer is on retainer, you still own the land, you are able to easily get rid of members that dont play by the rules.

x2! I've had the same exact idea and even used the same exact example membership annual cost of $250 when discussing it. That's the best idea in my opinion out of all the ideas that has been discussed thus far....but I'm sure there's still some legal loopholes in that. Of course, what doesn't have legal loopholes nowadays?

 

[UABYJ94]

It's my understanding he is looking to be bought out of the land in order to protect him while still keeping the park open for rides. He doesn't care about retaining the land once he is bought out at the amount he has invested in it to date. That is where the LLC and shared owners come in and take over the plans of the park for future upgrades and maintenance. Collect anual fees and set up work days/weekends to spend time cleaning the park, making new trails etc.etc.

 

[danb303]

You can't sudstitute a lawyer on retainer for insurance. I don't blame the guy for not wanting to be covered. The owner being an LLC doesn't protect him from losing the land and all his time and money he has invested. The only thing the LLC protects is his "personal" assets. And there are ways around that.

Unfortunately, there isn't an easy way to make this work. I'm not sure why the guest couldn't sign a waiver.

I wonder if you could form a "club" and have weekend and/or yearly memberships? Is there protection for "private clubs" and its members? I remember a night club in Gadsden that was a so called private club and all you had to do was pay the cover and fill out a small membership card. They claimed the insurance was cheaper for a private club that it was for public... just a thought.