Width Restrictions

[mudhog007]

you guys were stuck in trucks not prepared.:looser: you refused help . you were rude.:flipoff: you were undertired and on the deepest muddyest hole there.:looser: after waiting a half hour (not 4 minutes) you finnaly got out. then the next guy, in an undertired, unprepared truck charged the same hole in a smaller truck, what a suprise!!! stuck worse!!:fawkdancesmiley: :haha: maybe since you remember what our trucks look like, now you have an elbe building recipe!!:kissmyass: please go ahead with minumum requirements. may i ticket people like this if i see them on the worst trail in the worst trucks with no lockers and peewee tires ??:cheer:

Wow if you think that you need lockers and an EXO and 39" tires to run swamp trail then I'd hate to see what you think it requires to run busy.

Refused help? must not have been you because the guys that came up behind us offered no help nor did they even say hi, must have been too busy checking out the broke rig and "undertired rigs", and sucking down the cold ones.

The guys I'm talking about didn't stick around long enough to see any of us go through the ruts, they tore off after the rooster show, so it must not have been you.

I wan't trying to attack any one nor was I trying to cause an issue, I was simple stating that the relationship between underequiped rigs making bypasses was not entirely true.

My apologies if I have offended anyone personally.

 

[Kat]

Some designated trails and maybe your favorite/local area, yes. QUOTE]

I believe most areas try to have at least labeled trails for :squirrel: (walking), :bananallama: (horse riding), motor cycles, quads/three wheelers, and 4x4's. What we are discussing here is too seperate the 4x4 trails between small/medium (up to 76" total width)and large (76" and larger).
The problem is is that there are all sorts of vehicles that are or can be made under 76" that have 44" SS and kill the trails for the small guy that is starting out running his or her stock wrangler. Then the same thing can be said for larger than 76" wide running 6' tractor tires and make ruts soo deep that a skidder could get lost in them.

I know i am going to extreams here but my point is this, trying to classify a few trails for every type, kind, and size of vehicle is nearly impossible along with trying to have trails that are easy, light medium, medium, medium hard, hard and death runs. so we all need to work with each other and try our best to make it nice for everybody.

sorry for ranting, but its my :beer: 's worth.
Kat

 

[pokey]

Well said, but let's take the next logical thought. Our fore-wheelers who had Jeeps (Willys) were wheeling in Willys because, quite candidly, there were no other alternatives. In the 50s, who made a 4x4 PU? Marman? Certainly not Ford and Chevy. And they certainly weren't plentiful. When did the Ford 4x4 become both plentiful and cheap?

We are forced into playing the hand we were dealt with NOW. Now, I'm definately NOT advocating full sizes for wheelers, but playing devil's advocate isn't all bad either.

So now, and old CJ is worth Kachang!, but an early 80s F150, or K-Blazer can be bought for $1500 - $2000. Why not rebuild all the trail systems (and the users will do it for free) into wide trails?

Do I think it will make my wheeling easier (and less fun)? Yes. Do I want this? NO. But why not?

Which would be better? Limiting someone from running a trail due to vehicle size -OR- making it easier on the more well prepared trail rigs (like mine)?

And what would the Enviro-Nazi's say, if we widened all of Kaner Flats Trail so that a Suburban could fit?

Your both on track here but forgeting an important part. Its been jeep owners (and other small rigs) in the CLUBS that have been maintaining these trails since they were created. Its been the same groups that have been doing most if not all of the political work to keep said trails open. So why should the same people work even more so that users that dont support the core group can have a place to play:eeek: . with all of the work partys I have attended over the years I would have to say that the larger rigs represented less than 1% of the users. The few times you do see a full size rig at a work party is because someone brings there work truck to haul materials. If the full size and larger rigs crowd wants trails then they should get off their butts and get to work in the political arena first. And then get to work on building trails to suit their needs and leave the tight skinny trails alone. Now on the positive side of this some of this is happening. Gibby is working hard at creating trails at elbe that will fit these larger rigs and hes going about the right way by working with the agency that controls the land. This is how you make changes happen and get things done:cheer:

 

[pokey]

Some designated trails and maybe your favorite/local area, yes.

Most of the Oregon Coast Range and Cascades, etc (WA too!) were opened with a D8 or better. Often a Skidder choked!
Not a Flattie.

wrong . Most of the trails were just tracks thur the woods from jeeps then opened up with heavy equipt(some) by agencys that deemed it necesary to do so(sometimes good sometimes bad)

 

[CHOP SHOP]

Wow if you think that you need lockers and an EXO and 39" tires to run swamp trail then I'd hate to see what you think it requires to run busy.

Refused help? must not have been you because the guys that came up behind us offered no help nor did they even say hi, must have been too busy checking out the broke rig and "undertired rigs", and sucking down the cold ones.

The guys I'm talking about didn't stick around long enough to see any of us go through the ruts, they tore off after the rooster show, so it must not have been you.

I wan't trying to attack any one nor was I trying to cause an issue, I was simple stating that the relationship between underequiped rigs making bypasses was not entirely true.

My apologies if I have offended anyone personally.

we used the bypasses to go around underequiped rigs that should have used the bypasses. :corn: and yes i think you need 38s min. and lockers to run the swamp trail. when you were there in said suburban with 35s and no lockers it was the nicest day of the year, you need to run this trail in a couple of weeks. wanna come back?? fullsizes kickass on the swamp trail- big tires lockers and horsepower!! i wasnt attacking anyone either, you just brought up a scenerio that i see alot at elbe.:booo: i bitch about this alot, but elbe doesnt offer much for peewee rigs sorry. look at gibbys rig it sports a good combo for elbe, it is well equiped and setup for elbe. i think the gate keeper obsticales are the way to go. make them harder than the trail. then rigs can be kept off of the trails that dont fit the bill. it takes about an hour to run the gay :rb: (easy) trails at elbe, it doesnt offer much for peewee rigs :corn: sorry.

 

[Fullywrecked]

Did I mention that all restrictions are

Trail maintianance is also :rb:

Spend your time and money fixing the parking areas and Campgounds.

I got into this sport to go OFFROAD. If somebody can't make it because their vehicle is under equiped or they just can't fawking drive, I will help them get out if I am around. I have made many friends doing this. They went home worked on there rig so it would work and they came back with a different outlook and had fun building and wheeling. Thats part of the sport. If you are under equiped you either build your rig to do what you need or stay on the logging roads if you don't want to.:kissmybutt:

 

[Brian H]

we used the bypasses to go around underequiped rigs that should have used the bypasses. :corn: and yes i think you need 38s min. and lockers to run the swamp trail. when you were there in said suburban with 35s and no lockers it was the nicest day of the year, you need to run this trail in a couple of weeks. wanna come back?? fullsizes kickass on the swamp trail- big tires lockers and horsepower!! i wasnt attacking anyone either, you just brought up a scenerio that i see alot at elbe.:booo: i bitch about this alot, but elbe doesnt offer much for peewee rigs sorry. look at gibbys rig it sports a good combo for elbe, it is well equiped and setup for elbe. i think the gate keeper obsticales are the way to go. make them harder than the trail. then rigs can be kept off of the trails that dont fit the bill. it takes about an hour to run the gay :rb: (easy) trails at elbe, it doesnt offer much for peewee rigs :corn: sorry.

You mean the burban halfway through this video.

http://s172.photobucket.com/albums/...ction=view&current=S10firsttimeoutofshop1.flv

 

[mudhog007]

thats what it looks like now but then the day in questionit had 36" swampers on it. Its just a tow rig now.

But then again I wasn't the one who was stuck, just stuck behind others as well

 

[Outback]

wrong . Most of the trails were just tracks thur the woods from jeeps then opened up with heavy equipt(some) by agencys that deemed it necesary to do so(sometimes good sometimes bad)

LOL! Maybe where you are! WA did have 4x4 routes long before OR to be sure! If you are referring to those or your play areas then I'll defer to your greater knowledge.

No disrespect, however I was here...

I've been down logging access ways that were cut in abandoned and became trails for decades... Though many of those areas were the first sacrificed for Spotted Owlez (yum!)...



Again No Dis:awesomework:

 

[Harvester of Sorrow]

ON TOPIC:::

No...there should not be width restrictions. It should be an unregulated aspect of the the hobby.

No there should not be tire restrictions. It should be an unregulated aspect of the hobby.

OFF TOPIC:::

This subject will always be a debate...never coming to fruition. It will remain a subject of debate well after 90% of the web-wheeling idiots on the internet loose interest in the hobby.

 

[pokey]

we used the bypasses to go around underequiped rigs that should have used the bypasses. :corn: and yes i think you need 38s min. and lockers to run the swamp trail. when you were there in said suburban with 35s and no lockers it was the nicest day of the year, you need to run this trail in a couple of weeks. wanna come back?? fullsizes kickass on the swamp trail- big tires lockers and horsepower!! i wasnt attacking anyone either, you just brought up a scenerio that i see alot at elbe.:booo: i bitch about this alot, but elbe doesnt offer much for peewee rigs sorry. look at gibbys rig it sports a good combo for elbe, it is well equiped and setup for elbe. i think the gate keeper obsticales are the way to go. make them harder than the trail. then rigs can be kept off of the trails that dont fit the bill. it takes about an hour to run the gay :rb: (easy) trails at elbe, it doesnt offer much for peewee rigs :corn: sorry.

OH you mean the pee wee rigs that built the trails system:eeek: Its the big rigs that went in and tore the **** out of the trails that made it the mess it has been. Follow gibbys lead in making trails for bigger rigs and quit tearing up the trails built by small rigs for small rigs.

 

[pokey]

Did I mention that all restrictions are

Trail maintianance is also :rb:

Spend your time and money fixing the parking areas and Campgounds.

I got into this sport to go OFFROAD. If somebody can't make it because their vehicle is under equiped or they just can't fawking drive, I will help them get out if I am around. I have made many friends doing this. They went home worked on there rig so it would work and they came back with a different outlook and had fun building and wheeling. Thats part of the sport. If you are under equiped you either build your rig to do what you need or stay on the logging roads if you don't want to.:kissmybutt:

Trail maintanance is unfortunatly a neccasary evil to keep trails open. End maitanance and no more trails:booo:

 

[blaz4x4]

I have been wheelin for the last 6 years now. Not as long some. I have wheeled a fullsize k5 and now a toyota with full width axels. My truck is 80" tire to tire. For some of you to say that because I am not a jeep or a toy ( just because of my width) that I should be limited to the trailes that I should be able to use is pretty one sided. This is public land and I pay my taxes like anyone and as long as I am being carfull not to tear up the trails and carry out my garbage and anything I see along the way who has the right to tell me I can not use a trail. Last winter I built this toy for the reason that the body of the k5 was to big and was to much work to keep the body off the trees. Now there is no problems at all and the axle width is not an issue. What I am trying to say is we have a responsibility to do what is right and if someone is not we need to let them know they are not. If we start to limit or charge for use then that gives the governing faction more control over something that we pay for. We start giving that up and we may lose it forever. It is up to us to say my truck is to big or is not equiped for that trail. Like myself I have wanted to take the busy wild trail for a long time now but my truck is not ready yet so I will wait. What we lack from some of us is this responsibility and some day it could be the undoing of our sport.

 

[pokey]

I have been wheelin for the last 6 years now. Not as long some. I have wheeled a fullsize k5 and now a toyota with full width axels. My truck is 80" tire to tire. For some of you to say that because I am not a jeep or a toy ( just because of my width) that I should be limited to the trailes that I should be able to use is pretty one sided. This is public land and I pay my taxes like anyone and as long as I am being carfull not to tear up the trails and carry out my garbage and anything I see along the way who has the right to tell me I can not use a trail. Last winter I built this toy for the reason that the body of the k5 was to big and was to much work to keep the body off the trees. Now there is no problems at all and the axle width is not an issue. What I am trying to say is we have a responsibility to do what is right and if someone is not we need to let them know they are not. If we start to limit or charge for use then that gives the governing faction more control over something that we pay for. We start giving that up and we may lose it forever. It is up to us to say my truck is to big or is not equiped for that trail. Like myself I have wanted to take the busy wild trail for a long time now but my truck is not ready yet so I will wait. What we lack from some of us is this responsibility and some day it could be the undoing of our sport.

Do you have a winch or travel with a group that has winches? If so there is NO reason that you cant run the busywid. We ran that trail for years with no lockers no winches and 31" tires. Granted it took some time and a lot of work but thats all part of the fun of wheeling. Just because some jerk in a more equiped rig that is out to race thru the trails comes up behind you is no reason not to have fun. Be prepared to take care of your own, know your limitations and you will be fine. All to often this seems to be turning into a have and have not game with rigs. I say run what you brung and as long as your not killing the trails then have fun. Cant we all just get along:eeek:

 

[Gibby1]

I have been wheelin for the last 6 years now. Not as long some. I have wheeled a fullsize k5 and now a toyota with full width axels. My truck is 80" tire to tire. For some of you to say that because I am not a jeep or a toy ( just because of my width) that I should be limited to the trailes that I should be able to use is pretty one sided. This is public land and I pay my taxes like anyone and as long as I am being carfull not to tear up the trails and carry out my garbage and anything I see along the way who has the right to tell me I can not use a trail. Last winter I built this toy for the reason that the body of the k5 was to big and was to much work to keep the body off the trees. Now there is no problems at all and the axle width is not an issue. What I am trying to say is we have a responsibility to do what is right and if someone is not we need to let them know they are not. If we start to limit or charge for use then that gives the governing faction more control over something that we pay for. We start giving that up and we may lose it forever. It is up to us to say my truck is to big or is not equiped for that trail. Like myself I have wanted to take the busy wild trail for a long time now but my truck is not ready yet so I will wait. What we lack from some of us is this responsibility and some day it could be the undoing of our sport.

I don't know if you're aware of this or not, but the trails you drive on, are on public land, but they are not directly paid for by your taxes. They are paid for by funds raised by volunteers for the most part. Several organizations donate matching funds based on volunteer hours. If it wasn't for the volunters and the funds that they raise, you wouldn't have (legal) trails at all.

 

[TreeClimber]

Gibby,

Calm down a little. Most of the land was/is DNR, Forrest Service, etc. Yeah, there's a lot of donations which are used to pay for the supplies to repair and maintain the trails, but the land itself? I'd say that land isn't owned or bought by the donations. If it is, who know owns it now?

I KNOW how vitally important to you this subject is, and am certainly not belittling your passion and vigor for keeping these trails open. Indeed I aplaud it. But a generalized feeling that most feel, is that if I pay taxes (which I pay plenty) that the resources that I utilize (like the trails) are paid for by my tax dollars.

And the way I read his post, was simply that.

Furthermore, I'm a club member, a PNW member, and an individual. And I do far more trail maintaining by my lonesome than I do as a club member or a PNW member. (And I have helped on the Busy with towing a trailer loaded with rock thru it too! In and out several times! And towin' a trail isn't easy on that trail!) But every spring, guys like me re-open trails by sawing thru the downfalls, keeping everyone on the main trails. If everyone does a little, a LOT is accomplished.

T

 

[Gibby1]

Gibby,

Calm down a little. Most of the land was/is DNR, Forrest Service, etc. Yeah, there's a lot of donations which are used to pay for the supplies to repair and maintain the trails, but the land itself? I'd say that land isn't owned or bought by the donations. If it is, who know owns it now?

I KNOW how vitally important to you this subject is, and am certainly not belittling your passion and vigor for keeping these trails open. Indeed I aplaud it. But a generalized feeling that most feel, is that if I pay taxes (which I pay plenty) that the resources that I utilize (like the trails) are paid for by my tax dollars.

And the way I read his post, was simply that.

Furthermore, I'm a club member, a PNW member, and an individual. And I do far more trail maintaining by my lonesome than I do as a club member or a PNW member. (And I have helped on the Busy with towing a trailer loaded with rock thru it too! In and out several times! And towin' a trail isn't easy on that trail!) But every spring, guys like me re-open trails by sawing thru the downfalls, keeping everyone on the main trails. If everyone does a little, a LOT is accomplished.

T

Don't worry, I'm not overly excited. A lot of people don't realize where the funds come from. The materials that build the bridges, the bathrooms etc, are all purchased by funds raised by volunteer hours and various grants, not from your general taxes. More just as a matter of information than anything else.

FYI, if you're going on a run and cleaning up trails, let me know. We can get those hours approved as a work party and include them in the volunteer hours, but I think we have to do it ahead of time.

The DNR lands receive very little funding from your taxes. These lands are managed by the DNR (and I may get some of this wrong) the are trust lands owned by various organizations but the DNR manages the land. DNR looks at all of this as a crop Like trees should be. I'm new at the financing part of the game but from what I can gather so far, this is the way that it works. I don't know if the DNR itself owns the last like the USFS doesn... Someone will probably correct me if I'm wrong:redneck:

 

[Digger 5]

blaz4x4-
While I have suggested 80" be a standard maximum width, there are some trails that you just can't do at 80" wide. Are you actually suggesting that we cut these trails down so 80" will fit? Take a look at many of the trails at Shoestring. Almost every trail has a old path that goes between 2 trees that now has a bypass. Hell, my 76" wide rig won't even fit.
We need to have a max width recomendation because once a rig gets into the trail, they'll do anything to get out (except, it seems, turn around).
Lets go a bit extreme. If 80" is ok, how about 84"? 84" will work so then how about 88"?. I have a friend that wheels out of state with a rig that is 98" outside tire. Should that be ok for our trails too?
We have to start somewhere. Personally, I think gate keepers are a great idea because they do a great job at keeping out peeps with ill-equipped rigs. Unfortunately, they won't work everywhere.

Pokey is right on the money. Join a club and get involved.

 

[pokey]

Don't worry, I'm not overly excited. A lot of people don't realize where the funds come from. The materials that build the bridges, the bathrooms etc, are all purchased by funds raised by volunteer hours and various grants, not from your general taxes. More just as a matter of information than anything else.

FYI, if you're going on a run and cleaning up trails, let me know. We can get those hours approved as a work party and include them in the volunteer hours, but I think we have to do it ahead of time.

The DNR lands receive very little funding from your taxes. These lands are managed by the DNR (and I may get some of this wrong) the are trust lands owned by various organizations but the DNR manages the land. DNR looks at all of this as a crop Like trees should be. I'm new at the financing part of the game but from what I can gather so far, this is the way that it works. I don't know if the DNR itself owns the last like the USFS doesn... Someone will probably correct me if I'm wrong:redneck:

I will, the state owns the lands that the DNR manages. The DNRs main focus is to manage these lands (trust) for funding of the public schools. They "allow' us as well as other user groups to recreate on these lands as long as no harm is done to the crop (trees) allowing this recreation is becoming more and more difficult due to enviromental concers and the rules they must follow. This is why as users its so very i,portant that we follow the rules to save our trails. Most of the grants gibby speaks of are matching funds grants. The agency(dnr) is awarded grants from various agencys (IAC, NRTP,SIMMs,NOVA) with the stipulation that matching volunteer hours are needed to release the funds. The more hours we dedicate to a project the higher it is ranked on the funding list thus the more money we get.

 

[blaz4x4]

I am just trying to say know your rig know your limitations. Nothing wrong with working through a tough trail, part of the fun. I have had my share of tough trails but I have never left anything damaged (trees) or trail rutted any worse that any other narower rig. I just do not want to be kicked off trails because my axle width is 80". Not fair when I do not touch any trees and I do my part as a user and clean up as I go and take garbage home that is not even mine. I do not understand the problem with a bypass in some places. Have you not had to use a bypass even once. The ones I have used I used so I did not rut up the trail or damage a tree. If the bypass is built properly and used properly it could be an asset to the trail. I do think a 80" limit could be used. Look at a chevy axle with 10 inch wide wheels it will be 80". How can we block out all these people that run chevy ford or dodge axles it does not seem fair when their are ways to make them all work without harm. As far as funding it is not all funded by donations only. Their are funds from the forest service for federal land and state for dnr lands that go for this to. That is how and why the patrol them. I will agree that joining a club is the right thing to do and is my hopes to get to in the future but with two kids right now and not alot of time to even wheel but a few times a year right now not in the cards but in a few years for sure.