trails disscusion

[Damnyankee]

A full size aka Long Wheel Base compared to a Short Wheel Base is what some of this converstation refers to. Speaking personally, when I refer to a SWB trail, I'm talking about a trail built specifically to challenge or to be enjoyed by people driving vehicles that have a wheel base say, under 100" long and likely 74" wide. The flat fenders, Samis some of the stock dimension Cjs and such. These vehicles cans still be very well built but the trails would be such that the challenge to the trail is not about climbing over huge obstacles or getting through deep mud pits, but winding their way through very tight obstacles.

I don't believe that "tight is right", it's not for my style of wheeling, but there are a lot that do prefer that type of wheeling. That's what was lost to them as the busywild has morphed over the years. SWB rigs can and do still run 40" tires...

Ok, so according to what you have said, my nissan pathifinder is a full size.
104.5 wb, 75 wide and on 36's.

 

[pokey]

OK guys this can be a productive thread so lets keep the personal **** out of it. I just cleaned house again and I am getting tired of doing so. So lets keep it on topic and keep it clean.:awesomework:

 

[CHOP SHOP]

OK guys this can be a productive thread so lets keep the personal **** out of it. I just cleaned house again and I am getting tired of doing so. So lets keep it on topic and keep it clean.:awesomework:

wasnt this toppic origanaly in the chatter box? then moved to your playing field?

 

[Damnyankee]

I understand that Dale, and that's why I've written off the busy for my use, but enjoy watching others beat their rig through it, and will continue to help maintain it.


Could possibly, but I've been on the busy every winter for the last few years. The 05/06 winter was damn wet, and the trail wasn't as torn up as it's gotten over the last 2 years. I ran my rig on 34x10.50s on the busy in Dec 06 and only needed a pull in one spot. The trail has changed drastically since then...



Bullshit. 5 years ago I wheeled 90% of Evans stock on 30" mall terrains. Now, 5 years later I'm hitting the same **** on the same spots on my body and am lifted 5" on 34s... :eeek: These trails are degrading way faster than they used to. Over use? Lack of bodies to maintain them? I dunno, I don't blame the big tire guys solely.. but if you built your rig and then within 2 years you had to upgrade to one tons and 38"+ tires just to run the same trails you ran stock on street tires 5 years before, you might be a little butthurt too. Especially when the trails didn't need that built of a rig to run them.

so.. your saying that evans has degraded by 7" in the last 5 years.
not too bad considering the use that evans sees.

Hell, i did the same 5 years ago in a stock 87 pathfinder on 30's. But run 1000+ vehicles accross it every year and its going to get beate down, not just by the "big" tire guys.

I do agree that the problem lies with the people who just want to throw mud and when they can't make it they make several attempts at full throttle digging holes. But tire size is irrelevent in this situation. I can dig just a big a hole with my 36's as a guy on 40's can.

 

[pokey]

wasnt this toppic origanaly in the chatter box? then moved to your playing field?

Yes it was but we felt it was better suited in the trails section since it was a "trails" related issue.

 

[Gibby1]

Ok, so according to what you have said, my nissan pathifinder is a full size.
104.5 wb, 75 wide and on 36's.

No, it's a LWB.

A full size in my opinion, also takes into account body style and length/width combinations. A K5 Blazer is full size more because the body is so wide than due to wheel base or wheel width.

There are no hard and fast rules about this but generally speaking the SWB rigs are Toyota Land Cruisers, Non-XJ jeeps, Sami's etc.

 

[Travis1]

What is worse for a trail: a vehicle with 33" tires open front limited slip rear, or 42s locked up?
:corn:

If both drivers suck and like to throw mud?

The 42's locked up.

Again, it's the driver that's key. But when I go down a trail and see a 2' deep tire sized crater where someone has been spinning their tire, there's no way in hell a rig with 33's made it.

Or down a muddy trail and the ruts are 18-24" deep on either side - again it's not the 33" tires doing it.

If you look at the heavy wear areas it becomes obvious that it was a large tire that was used to create the damage. It's not the tire's fault or the rigs, it's the drivers; but since you can't spot bad drivers from the good based on looks alone, tire size becomes the only common denominator.

 

[CHOP SHOP]

If both drivers suck and like to throw mud?

The 42's locked up.

Again, it's the driver that's key. But when I go down a trail and see a 2' deep tire sized crater where someone has been spinning their tire, there's no way in hell a rig with 33's made it.

Or down a muddy trail and the ruts are 18-24" deep on either side - again it's not the 33" tires doing it.

If you look at the heavy wear areas it becomes obvious that it was a large tire that was used to create the damage. It's not the tire's fault or the rigs, it's the drivers; but since you can't spot bad drivers from the good based on looks alone, tire size becomes the only common denominator.

appaerntly you have never seen a cj5 with 33s trying to climb a wet root that sits at 35 inches. at the same time his back tire hits the root the front just climbed.:corn:

If you want to see what tires have made the trail, look at the diff print. better yet get out on the trail and run it then speak your opinion of it.

ever seen a toyota with a 22re throw mud off of 42s? it dont happen.

I just dont get it. nobody likes mud, right. so where are all the folks spinning mud off of the busy? you only spin if you need to, or eat mud. sound fun huh.

In the middle of the summer when I think I need to get muddy in my wheeler (its for trails not mud) I drop in the swamp trail after running the busy. and yes I roll through the swamp on the rev limiter. you have to just to get anywhere. so why dont you guys bitch about the swamp trail??:corn:

 

[Travis1]

have a wheel base say, under 100" long and likely 74" wide.

I would ammend those dimensions to under 100" long and somewhere between 76-80" wide.

While most traditional Jeep sized vehicles are going to be under that wheelbase, it's not uncommon to be just a hair under 76" (over 74") or up to 80" wide depending on backspacing when running a tire 12.50" wide.

 

[Corey Y]

Another element to take into consideration is soil composition. Evans and Elbe are mainly glacial till: clay and topsoil. Eleven years ago when I first started wheelin at Evans, there were deep ruts, mudholes, and badly "torn up" sections of the trails. That was when 33s were normal and 36s were big. I was surprised how deep into the hillside many of the trails were.

 

[Gibby1]

I would ammend those dimensions to under 100" long and somewhere between 76-80" wide.

While most traditional Jeep sized vehicles are going to be under that wheelbase, it's not uncommon to be just a hair under 76" (over 74") or up to 80" wide depending on backspacing when running a tire 12.50" wide.

I chose 74" because that's the size that the PNW4WDA chose for the Trail Jamboree... Seems kinda silly given the info you just gave me doesn't it. But that's an entirely different discussion:stirpot:

 

[little crawler]

I use to wheel these trails about 10 yrs ago with a CJ5 on 33's and had problems then i leanred you dont go to Elbe and expect to get out easy and unharmed i go into those trails with respect ive been stuck out there for many hours and many nights it sucks. I do have big tires and big axles now and i hate to get to muddy i try not to throw mud in the holes and ruin it for everyone i went there a few weeks back and had a sami on 31's follow me and he walked right through everywhere i went. I dont think its just the big tire guys ruining thing Yes i understand they can easier than rigs with smaller tires but to me its nice to cruise that Trail and get out alive and not have to spend the night and thats what happens when you screw off on the trails at Elbe.

 

[Travis1]

I chose 74" because that's the size that the PNW4WDA chose for the Trail Jamboree... Seems kinda silly given the info you just gave me doesn't it. But that's an entirely different discussion:stirpot:

Doesn't mean you need to use that they chose for Trail Jamboree; unless you didn't intend to use that as your only guidance.

TTC and TTCW the limit is 76", which may have originally came from the forest service to best suit the trails at TSF.

 

[CHOP SHOP]

I use to wheel these trails about 10 yrs ago with a CJ5 on 33's and had problems then i leanred you dont go to Elbe and expect to get out easy and unharmed i go into those trails with respect ive been stuck out there for many hours and many nights it sucks. I do have big tires and big axles now and i hate to get to muddy i try not to throw mud in the holes and ruin it for everyone i went there a few weeks back and had a sami on 31's follow me and he walked right through everywhere i went. I dont think its just the big tire guys ruining thing Yes i understand they can easier than rigs with smaller tires but to me its nice to cruise that Trail and get out alive and not have to spend the night and thats what happens when you screw off on the trails at Elbe.

said perfect, thanks.

I like to go wheelin, not go winchen. but will winch if needed.:beer:

 

[jeepermc]

I chose 74" because that's the size that the PNW4WDA chose for the Trail Jamboree... Seems kinda silly given the info you just gave me doesn't it. But that's an entirely different discussion:stirpot:

If i'm not mistaken...And yes it's an entirely different discussion....but I believe that 74" is the width that the FOREST SERVICE chose for the trail jamboree permit. I know guys like to bash the rules that are set forth for the jamboree, but most don't realize that all those rules that the Jamboree sets are really set by the Forest Service in the permit required to run it.. Without that permit= No jamboree.... And the jamboree does alot of good to fund the fight to keep the land you're arguing about here....open.

 

[03 CON]

If i'm not mistaken...And yes it's an entirely different discussion....but I believe that 74" is the width that the FOREST SERVICE chose for the trail jamboree permit. I know guys like to bash the rules that are set forth for the jamboree, but most don't realize that all those rules that the Jamboree sets are really set by the Forest Service in the permit required to run it.. Without that permit= No jamboree.... And the jamboree does alot of good to fund the fight to keep the land you're arguing about here....open.

So your saying that the jamboree is limited to 74"?

 

[Gibby1]

If i'm not mistaken...And yes it's an entirely different discussion....but I believe that 74" is the width that the FOREST SERVICE chose for the trail jamboree permit. I know guys like to bash the rules that are set forth for the jamboree, but most don't realize that all those rules that the Jamboree sets are really set by the Forest Service in the permit required to run it.. Without that permit= No jamboree.... And the jamboree does alot of good to fund the fight to keep the land you're arguing about here....open.

Well, I was told by the powers that be in the past that the FS set the rules as well, but here it is from the horse's mouth.

We decided on that width (74")after I measured a number of built rigs. These rigs came from the event and when the TJ came out I traveled to a local dealer and measured every large tire dealer preped TJ on his lot. We measure bulge to bulge. Well prepared rigs may get by with tread block to tread block. Those measuring have been instructed to be very liberal in their acessment. They refer all judgement calls to me. I screen all registrations prior to a confirmation of the registration. We have never turned someone away after they arrive for width. They may be restricted to lesser rated trails. We have sent people away for lack of proof of insurance.

Since we adopted our own rule tire size has grown. Some run ridiculous size tires. Some run wider than stock axles to accomadate these tires. The decision for the rule came about when we were getting backyard/shadetree fabbed rigs ( aproblem that has tended to go away with the advent of the TJ). Those rigs generaly caused a problem. Many of these rigs proved unrelieable and in some cases not/trail worthly, not to mention of questionable legality. We were met with arguements that the operators of those rigs could run what they brought and they could negoiate any trail we ran. Our host were fed up with the additude and the fact that those rigs held up the groups and often came back on a strap. We gave the width rule much thought. Our permit renews after the 2009 event (I think). I plan to rewrite the rule to accomadate rigs running stock width axles.

I know the arguements. I know how this event works. I have seen the best of drivers in rigs that did not fit our standards. Those drivers made it thru every trail. On a couple of particular runs that we closely watched those runs ran 2 hours or more longer. When the group as a whole was asked what's up it came out that the larger rigs had no place with the smaller ones. We made the changes we saw needed to be made to keep the the runs on schedule. It has made for a better event.

 

[dirk]

So your saying that the jamboree is limited to 74"?

Yep

 

[Gibby1]

So your saying that the jamboree is limited to 74"?

No, but there are quite a few trails that use that as a max width limitation. That's the number 1 reason I don't attend. I'm too fat :redneck:

 

[dirk]

No, but there are quite a few trails that use that as a max width limitation. That's the number 1 reason I don't attend. I'm too fat :redneck:

I stand corrected...looks like 4 of the 10 trails have the 74" restriction.

trail descriptions

:beer: