trails disscusion

[Jaydog]

Education is the answer...

Whatever, I'll still wheel a fullsize...

Funniest post ever :haha: :haha: :haha:

 

[dirtygoat]

Funniest post ever :haha: :haha: :haha:

You should bring us all coffee at the next clean up...:fawkdancesmiley:

 

[Travis1]

Education is the answer... And that doesn't mean shoving it down ones throat...

I agree, education is the answer. But sometimes it needs to be followed with the proverbial baseball bat. Since I'm part of forest watch, and historically have been an active part in Tahuya I have a personal stake in this. I don't want to see the work me and my friends put in to keeping the 4WD system alive destroyed by idiots.

As such, I and a few others I know generally follow this process.

1. When seeing someone do wrong, go talk to them and try the education route. That includes outlining the penalties for going off-trail. I do this non-confrontationaly by laying out the options and the ramifications letting the person I'm talking to decide what their next course of action is. This almost always ends on a positive note and they don't repeat. But, once in a while this fails.
2. Take pictures and record the issue. Report the problem to the DNR E&E officer later.
3. If the E&E officer is in the area, get him on the radio and report the problem so he has a chance to keep an eye out for the trouble maker. If caught going off trail or being on the wrong side of a gate this could not only mean a ticket but your vehicle could be impounded.

This isn't about ratting out fellow wheelers, this is about managing an ORV park and keeping it sustainable. We make our attempts to keep the policing internal but if someone refuses to respect the park then we can and do report it.

Why? Without having the numbers in front of me, I would estimate my club amasses at least 500-600 (documented and not) volunteer hours per year and over 1,000 on busy years. For a very small club that is a massive amount of time. The club nearly got torn apart due to the year of nearly no play and all work parties when Tahuya was being rebuilt - naturally, we want to protect that work.

Personally, I don't look at this as a big tire vs. little tire issue. I look at this as a lack of respect issue. The problem is so many more people are overbuilding their rigs for the trails that every year a larger and larger percentage of the big rig drivers seem to have no respect for the land they are driving on or the work others have put in to it. There were always trouble users but due to the sports popularity through the media that is out there I think the trouble user group is growing percentage wise.

Those with smaller rigs run the trails and are faced with more challenges so they don't get bored as easily and aren't tempted to wander off-trail. The answer is to make more difficult areas for the larger rigs, but hopefully not at too much expense to the little guys.

In Tahuya we put in what obstacles we can for the larger rigs, on the same trail everyone uses. Leaving a bypass around the hard obstacle that is fitting to the rest of the trail. This way no one really looses out and it cuts down on trail braiding. Mudding was another issue out there, the DNR was convinced to put in a legal mud pit. After that was done many of the problems went away and the mud pit has become a popular hang out for people to do stupid crap, like flop on level ground. :flipoff:

It would be nice if Ranier Vista or the Busy could be the same way. Allowing for the less built rig to run the trail along side the built ones. This way neither user group is excluded. One way of doing this, is if you are building a rock crawl, design in to it a 76" wide corridor for sub 100" wheelbase rigs to slip through. That is enough room for the majority of the smaller rigs. The problem with not building trail like this, is it's usually not club friendly. I can't think of many clubs that are all running built rigs, usually it's a pretty diverse mix.

Unfortunately, adapting trail to suit both takes more time, patience, compromise, and money than building it to suit one. Both of which can be hard to come by, but money is usually the hardest.

 

[Horus]

OK. That was a lot of reading. My new Warn 9.5ti showed up yesterday .

As in my previous post ( like eight pages ago ) I spoke of my support for the larger wheeled rigs. This comes from me in a ZJ on 33s and lots of time on the trails with all kinds of rigs. Just because someone has a V8 powered buggy on 40s doesn't mean he tears up the trails. I also learned how to wheel in a small rig. I did all of Evans in my 98 Limited on 2 inch pucks, sliders and 235-75-15s in the dead of winter. This included going down 197 in a vehicle still worth $10,000 at the time ( No it was not fun and took several hours to sling the body through the tight stuff to avoid damage. It was stupid and I was new to wheelin. ) I have already firmly decided that 35s are my limit for tire size on the full bodied ZJ. This will keep my drive trail alive and the moderate trails fun.

Yes I can understand why some trails should probably have tire size limitations. Most definitely do I agree they should go both ways. Even if only to let the uninformed new wheeler in his open/open stock XJ on 31s, know what he is in for and hence dissuade him from entering. There were several times when I was a newb that had there been just a simple sign with some rig requirements at the trail head I would have been like " Sweet. This ones not for me."

I think there should be trails out there that really only cater to the big rigs and buggies. There are FAR less of them than easy and moderate trails.

I have had the displeasure of witnessing people ripping up the trail a few times. More often than not excessive alcohol consumption was involved. Not the couple three beers guys at all but the guys you see first from 30 feet away and you say " WOW. That guy is hammered!"

The other main factor is usually indeed the type of rig. But get this, NOT the huge "overbuilt" rigs that usually get blamed for it. I have seen trails get paved by the guys who ( drum roll please ) don't want to take any body damage. You get the guy out there in his rig two days after he spent six hours waxing and detailing it. Then he want to try this " Four by four " thing he keeps hearing about and goes and gets himself in trouble. Then out comes the chain saw to open up the trail so he won't wipe a panel. Hogging out the bushes so he can bypass the hard tight part. Because hes new to the sport he is oblivious to the damage he is doing. All he knows is he is still making payments on it.

Next time you see a group of near stock rigs hit the trail follow them. You'll see.

 

[Gibby1]

The busy is getting SOME legal bypasses but not enough to make it an "all vehicles" trail.

The Rainier Vista doesn't have the geography to make that work. It will be full size friendly however. The Rainier Vista is a pretty short trail. We're talking about a 1/2 mile of hill climb with a short entrance and exit totalling maybe a mile in total. We'll only be working on that hill climb section with our changes. Some of the guys in my club have expressed similar concerns because a couple of them don't run big enough rigs to run what we're planning on building. We're wanting to control this with a suitably built bypass. A couple guys are on locked up rigs with 33" tires and winches so if they can make it through the gatekeeper it may take them a while to get through but we're not planning on putting a RESTRICTION on the Rainier Vista, only a recommendation. As far as a club run goes, it's sometimes just as much fun to watch someone else beat up their rig while you thing about all the things that you want to change. This trail will be about the challenge, not like running the Naches Pass trail, which is more about just "being out there." We don't want to see people ticketed on there so we're hoping that the gatekeeper will serve as our own cop...

 

[pokey]

Good posts this morning:awesomework:

 

[Totalled]

The main source of butthurt from the "small tire guys" comes from the fact that 2 years ago, you could run the busy locked up on 33s.. now rigs on 35s are plowing mud on the main parts of the trail while having to winch.. not even in the existing bog holes yet..

That's a huge change for only 2 years. It's not evolution, it's damage.

 

[Gibby1]

The main source of butthurt from the "small tire guys" comes from the fact that 2 years ago, you could run the busy locked up on 33s.. now rigs on 35s are plowing mud on the main parts of the trail while having to winch.. not even in the existing bog holes yet..

That's a huge change for only 2 years. It's not evolution, it's damage.

I'm not sure that fixing those areas is an option, for two reasons, money and volunteer labor.

The rock supplies were dropped by helicopter last year to deal with some of these issues but the time and money required to fix these area are quite extensive. From a logistical point of view we'd need to close down the busy from the start of the project until it was completed. There's just so much to do (if repairing it as determined to be the best approach) that it would take a month of work parties to build the necessary bypasses and repair sections that have deteriorated to an unsatisfactory condition. The decision needs to be made by Joe, the DNR and the club(s) that are adopting the busy as to which direction they want to go.
The most likely scenario at this point in time is to work to prevent continued damage but I don't see it being plausible (no desireable) to bring this back to a 33" tire type of trail.

I would still like to see a new trail built at Elbe specifically for SWB vehicles reminiscent of the OLD busywild. That's a 5 year project unless the DNR can be convinced to use some old trails that have been overgrown and unused for years. I've not been involved in a new trail building project but from what I understand it can be 5 years or more just to get an answer and a lot of money...

 

[Gaylord]

So far what I have taken away from this is that WE the good guys should police the idiots on the trail ourselves meaning we should say something immediately when we see it. And if they say "**** off old man, little tire guy" then we should knock their ****in teeth out. Because they are to stupid to learn any other way.
I wish to address the morons saying "stop calling people out for driving on stumps". I started this and I certainly did not call him out. Go back and read the thread before you get you panties in a wad. The guy who drove on the stump stated it was off trail and got all bent out of shape over it. He made his bed now he can lay in it.
I know big rigs are not going away, it's to late they should have been stopped years ago. I am asking the full size big tire guys to stay off the SWB trails and stick to what trails they fit on. thats all.

 

[Gaylord]

I would still like to see a new trail built at Elbe specifically for SWB vehicles reminiscent of the OLD busywild. That's a 5 year project unless the DNR can be convinced to use some old trails that have been overgrown and unused for years. I've not been involved in a new trail building project but from what I understand it can be 5 years or more just to get an answer and a lot of money...

Why would you want to see that built? So it can be ruined by the big guys?

You seen the Sadie Creek trail out side PA? F-in buggies went in and tore the snot out of it. It was a sweet little trail before that.

 

[Gibby1]

Why would you want to see that built? So it can be ruined by the big guys?

You seen the Sadie Creek trail out side PA? F-in buggies went in and tore the snot out of it. It was a sweet little trail before that.

Not if lessons are learned and it's properly built, maintained and managed, including enforcement.

I think there needs to be a SWB only trail at Elbe but the only way to get that is to build a new one.

PS Did you SEE the buggies tearing up Sadie Creek or are you assuming that it was the buggies?

 

[Gaylord]

Not if lessons are learned and it's properly built, maintained and managed, including enforcement.

I think there needs to be a SWB only trail at Elbe but the only way to get that is to build a new one.

PS Did you SEE the buggies tearing up Sadie Creek or are you assuming that it was the buggies?

There were two there when I was there. Climbing trees just to get into the start of the trail. I had words with them ofcourse the shrugged me off and laughed at me. I picked up their beer cans all the way through the trail and threw all the garbage on their car trailer when I left.

 

[CHOP SHOP]

The main source of butthurt from the "small tire guys" comes from the fact that 2 years ago, you could run the busy locked up on 33s.. now rigs on 35s are plowing mud on the main parts of the trail while having to winch.. not even in the existing bog holes yet..

That's a huge change for only 2 years. It's not evolution, it's damage.

the busy has bennfucked up for more than 2years:looser:

It got logged about 5-6 years ago and has been ****ed up since.:fawkdancesmiley:

last summer we took a cheroke with open diffs and 34x10.50 LTBs and it did fine. it has a whinch and used it once. Its funny how all this BS comes up at the worst time in history for winter weather. the snow and mother nature are responsible for the extra mud this year. not big tires.

before logging I never heard this called the busywild before. it has always been called the "EIGHT HOUR TRAIL" by locals. and it used to be alot longer. with the clearcut sections bringing the suck, the short woodsy part of the busy has gotten all the use. its a muddy shithole that nobody cared about until internet attention was made. :rb:

 

[CHOP SHOP]

truth be told, I find the busy easier when its the worst weather. (winter)

in the winter it is muddy and snowy. in the summer it is mostly dry there.

the mud holes on flat ground are the ones that stay muddy and they are not that tough unless full of winter mud. the hard parts on the busy are on the hills, wait inclines. the uphill sections are easier in the winter for me traction is shitty but the water helps clean out the lugs. In the summer youll find the traction is there but alll th ledges came back by then. in the winter all the mud sits in the low spots and collects making the undercuts easier. the summer time brings all the guys with little tires that HATE mud. the little tire guys then spin out all the sediment at the base of the stumps and roots and then whinch over them after all the footing is gone. since there is less rain in the summer it takes longer for sediment to come down the trail and fill in these spots again.

THE BUSY HAS LOOKED LIKE THIS FOR YEARS, nobody cared until it hit the net.:booo:

 

[Damnyankee]

My question is.. why is it mostly the "jeep" guys bitching about the torn up trails?
I dont run "big" tires, but when i come accross a section that has been, I just turn around and find another trail. If i can't, i just winch through.
I don't sit there and bitch about the "big" tire guys tearing it up for everybody.
If we get down to it, nobody runs smaller than 35's these days, with 40's being Big (yes there are bigger but not that many of them, same with smaller than 35's.. not many) And most of the people running 33's or so, won't do trail riding cause they are mall crawlers and don't want that pretty paint job messed up.

so your telling me that this 2.5" of tire make the difference between a full size trail and a swb trail?

During this entire thread, all i have gotten out of this is "the jeep guys" want easier trails".

I'm sure thats not the intent, but it sure looks that way.

 

[Gibby1]

My question is.. why is it mostly the "jeep" guys bitching about the torn up trails?
I dont run "big" tires, but when i come accross a section that has been, I just turn around and find another trail. If i can't, i just winch through.
I don't sit there and bitch about the "big" tire guys tearing it up for everybody.
If we get down to it, nobody runs smaller than 35's these days, with 40's being Big (yes there are bigger but not that many of them, same with smaller than 35's.. not many) And most of the people running 33's or so, won't do trail riding cause they are mall crawlers and don't want that pretty paint job messed up.

so your telling me that this 2.5" of tire make the difference between a full size trail and a swb trail?

During this entire thread, all i have gotten out of this is "the jeep guys" want easier trails".

I'm sure thats not the intent, but it sure looks that way.

A full size aka Long Wheel Base compared to a Short Wheel Base is what some of this converstation refers to. Speaking personally, when I refer to a SWB trail, I'm talking about a trail built specifically to challenge or to be enjoyed by people driving vehicles that have a wheel base say, under 100" long and likely 74" wide. The flat fenders, Samis some of the stock dimension Cjs and such. These vehicles cans still be very well built but the trails would be such that the challenge to the trail is not about climbing over huge obstacles or getting through deep mud pits, but winding their way through very tight obstacles.

I don't believe that "tight is right", it's not for my style of wheeling, but there are a lot that do prefer that type of wheeling. That's what was lost to them as the busywild has morphed over the years. SWB rigs can and do still run 40" tires...

 

[Gaylord]

A full size aka Long Wheel Base compared to a Short Wheel Base is what some of this converstation refers to. Speaking personally, when I refer to a SWB trail, I'm talking about a trail built specifically to challenge or to be enjoyed by people driving vehicles that have a wheel base say, under 100" long and likely 74" wide. The flat fenders, Samis some of the stock dimension Cjs and such. These vehicles cans still be very well built but the trails would be such that the challenge to the trail is not about climbing over huge obstacles or getting through deep mud pits, but winding their way through very tight obstacles.

I don't believe that "tight is right", it's not for my style of wheeling, but there are a lot that do prefer that type of wheeling. That's what was lost to them as the busywild has morphed over the years. SWB rigs can and do still run 40" tires...

I like trails that are tight and challenging. Just tight is boaring.

 

[Corey Y]

What is worse for a trail: a vehicle with 33" tires open front limited slip rear, or 42s locked up?
:corn:

 

[Totalled]

I'm not sure that fixing those areas is an option, for two reasons, money and volunteer labor.

The rock supplies were dropped by helicopter last year to deal with some of these issues but the time and money required to fix these area are quite extensive. From a logistical point of view we'd need to close down the busy from the start of the project until it was completed. There's just so much to do (if repairing it as determined to be the best approach) that it would take a month of work parties to build the necessary bypasses and repair sections that have deteriorated to an unsatisfactory condition. The decision needs to be made by Joe, the DNR and the club(s) that are adopting the busy as to which direction they want to go.
The most likely scenario at this point in time is to work to prevent continued damage but I don't see it being plausible (no desireable) to bring this back to a 33" tire type of trail.

I would still like to see a new trail built at Elbe specifically for SWB vehicles reminiscent of the OLD busywild. That's a 5 year project unless the DNR can be convinced to use some old trails that have been overgrown and unused for years. I've not been involved in a new trail building project but from what I understand it can be 5 years or more just to get an answer and a lot of money...

I understand that Dale, and that's why I've written off the busy for my use, but enjoy watching others beat their rig through it, and will continue to help maintain it.

the busy has bennfucked up for more than 2years:looser:

It got logged about 5-6 years ago and has been ****ed up since.:fawkdancesmiley:

last summer we took a cheroke with open diffs and 34x10.50 LTBs and it did fine. it has a whinch and used it once. Its funny how all this BS comes up at the worst time in history for winter weather. the snow and mother nature are responsible for the extra mud this year. not big tires.

Could possibly, but I've been on the busy every winter for the last few years. The 05/06 winter was damn wet, and the trail wasn't as torn up as it's gotten over the last 2 years. I ran my rig on 34x10.50s on the busy in Dec 06 and only needed a pull in one spot. The trail has changed drastically since then...

If we get down to it, nobody runs smaller than 35's these days, with 40's being Big (yes there are bigger but not that many of them, same with smaller than 35's.. not many) And most of the people running 33's or so, won't do trail riding cause they are mall crawlers and don't want that pretty paint job messed up.

Bullshit. 5 years ago I wheeled 90% of Evans stock on 30" mall terrains. Now, 5 years later I'm hitting the same **** on the same spots on my body and am lifted 5" on 34s... :eeek: These trails are degrading way faster than they used to. Over use? Lack of bodies to maintain them? I dunno, I don't blame the big tire guys solely.. but if you built your rig and then within 2 years you had to upgrade to one tons and 38"+ tires just to run the same trails you ran stock on street tires 5 years before, you might be a little butthurt too. Especially when the trails didn't need that built of a rig to run them.

 

[pokey]

What is worse for a trail: a vehicle with 33" tires open front limited slip rear, or 42s locked up?
:corn:

Even a locked up rig with 42s will still spin its tires we all know this is a fact. No matter how much easier it is with the bigger tires its still the asshat that just loves to spin their tires and throw mud that does the damage and we all know there are a bunch of them out there. The differance is when a guy with 42s digs holes he makes ruts that are impassable to someone with smaller tires.