trails disscusion

[Gibby1]

Maybe I missed the ass chewing for flexing out on a stump. But I really dont see the problem as long as its on the trail, if its off the trail different story. I mean the stump is a dead tree.. Its already dead.. So whats the problem???

There was no ass chewing for posing on a stump but the stump and vehicle were off the trail. I simply started by mentioning that driving off the trail was to drive up a stump was not an acceptable practice so that next time he would know. Then a few decided to stir the pot...

Outside the trail corridor a stump is not considered just a dead tree. It's considered "HABITAT" for all the little critters that live in it. When we move trees in to harden the bottoms of some of the mud holes, we were only allowed to move trees under 20" in diameter and we had to use fresh blow down that wasn't yet inhabited by all the little critters. The more rotten the stump, the more little critters in the hotel. I'm not supporting that, just explaining it.

 

[Gibby1]

ITS A ****IN STUMP. ITS ****IN DEAD. IF NOBODY EVER DRIVES ON IT EVER, ITS STILL A ****IN DEAD STUMP. all this **** is dumb:

Again, you display your ignorance.

To you and I, it's a dead tree. To the people who manage the land it's NOT a dead tree. It's part of the ecosystem. But I think all that is lost on you. Do I need to get you a definition of an ecosystem so you know what that means?

 

[pokey]

Again, you display your ignorance.

To you and I, it's a dead tree. To the people who manage the land it's NOT a dead tree. It's part of the ecosystem. But I think all that is lost on you. Do I need to get you a definition of an ecosystem so you know what that means?

Your wasting your breath Dale they dont want to understand so they never will understand. Same as they like to think were all turning into a bunch of tree huggers because we try to follow the rules set forth by the land managers. Their just trying to find a scapegoat to blame because they dont have a clue as to whats really going on out their.

 

[dirk]

everybody knows whats right and wrong.

Maybe that is true most of the time, but how many people do the right thing when no one is looking?

It is obvious that the DNR & FS are underfunded and have no interest in actively patrolling the trails...if more folks would take the time to EDUCATE someone about the laws of the land, then less folks could hid behind the "but I didn't know" excuse. Setting clear expectations (signs, trail markers, difficulty levels, etc) will help keep the honest people honest.

I don't see it as telling on a fellow wheeler...I see it as doing the job that needs to be done.

If you dont like what I am doing, keep it to your self. I wont worry about you either.

I am sure the forests are much easier (cheaper) to manage when they are locked behind a gate...turning a blind eye to someone breaking the rules, should get us there real quick.

 

[archer1965]

you wheel your way, I will wheel my way, they can wheel there way.:beer:

that's the issue at hand, dude. if everyone wheels however they want, nobody will end up wheelin at all. big brother is watching, the whole 'save the planet' thing is putting a microscope on everyone who uses the forests.

if we don't come together and follow the rules put in place by the man, the man will taketh away. that's the facts brutha, like it or not.

see Sultan Basin and Naneum Basin as examples of areas closed to wheelin :eeek:

 

[Gibby1]

Your wasting your breath Dale they dont want to understand so they never will understand. They're just trying to find a scapegoat to blame because they dont have a clue as to whats really going on out there.

You may be right, but since I'm just sitting here throwing a tree through my printer today (it's been printing for about 9 hours already), I might as well try.

Pokey, did you take spelling lessons from Crash? Maybe it's the moderator thing rubbing off from the master?????:haha:

 

[CHOP SHOP]

you wheel your way, I will wheel my way, they can wheel there way.:beer:

If you dont like what I am doing, keep it to your self.:flipoff: I wont worry about you either:awesomework:

If I see you taking a chainsaw to the shelter, I will kick your teeth in. If I see you lighting the out houses on fire, I will start ramming your rig. If I see you dumping your meth lab waste in the woods, I will tie them to a tree and feed them lithium batteries. If you are driving on a stump off of the trail, I will not do anything.:awesomework: I might not do the same, but I am not going to bitch at anybody wheeling. period.

 

[JOOP]

Gibby I got a lot of respect for you and your cause and all that. But I personally believe you gain your strength behind your keyboard and puss out in person. I'll explain...

A few years back you and I and a bunch of other rigs were on a trail run together up at Evan's, early fall. At one point in time some rigs decided to show off on a stump, tore it up , etc... I was standing right by you and you spoke softly, kinda mumbled something along the lines of "I'm sure thats not on the trail, or I'm sure thats not legal".. Something like that or along those words I cant remember exactly. But.........


You did nothing about it. Didn't stop it, didn't go over to the driver and say quit.. Nothing... You did nothing. In fact we all waited until they were done and then the trail run continued.


There's your sign!!!!:corn:

 

[Gibby1]

Gibby I got a lot of respect for you and your cause and all that. But I personally believe you gain your strength behind your keyboard and puss out in person. I'll explain...

A few years back you and I and a bunch of other rigs were on a trail run together up at Evan's, early fall. At one point in time some rigs decided to show off on a stump, tore it up , etc... I was standing right by you and you spoke softly, kinda mumbled something along the lines of "I'm sure thats not on the trail, or I'm sure thats not legal".. Something like that or along those words I cant remember exactly. But.........


You did nothing about it. Didn't stop it, didn't go over to the driver and say quit.. Nothing... You did nothing. In fact we all waited until they were done and then the trail run continued.


There's your sign!!!!:corn:

That was a while back... I would deal with it differently now. I can't stop them of course, but I would say something. There was two places that I recall in particular on that trip. One was a bunch of guys playing off the road on a little rock climb outside of the gravel pit area and second on 198 down by the water hole where they were circling around the stump. The rock area was obvious, it was just on the side of the road but it was definitely not part of the trail. The stump they were messing on was a tad more iffy in that it could have been part of the trail.

However, you're right, I should have spoken up, but at that time, I wasn't as sure on the rules as I am now. Here's what I also learned from that. They guys that were messing around, were all the guys that I thought, knew the rules and what they could and couldn't do. It was that very run that helped me to realize how much the newer wheelers look to the buggy and highly built rigs for direction since you'd expect those guys to know. The last 2 years working at Elbe has taught me a lot about what goes on behind the scenes and I take the trail abuse a lot more personally as a result.

You know where Chop Shop started with the tatle on a wheeler crap (I believe I have the story straight). We were running the busy and their group was running it backwards and I told them so.

Times change, we grow...

 

[Logan80]

WOW, you guys. Seriously.

I'm a "small tire" guy. A Samurai on 31s. I know that mangling the trails and forrest is bad, but come ON. Obviously trails will 'evolve' as the rigs that use them do. I know there are other trails that I can play on, and others like me. I understand people that built and maintained trails being upset that they can no longer play on them, but you have to let go at some point.

You don't hear NHRA refusing to allow the fastest dragsters because the slower ones can't keep up do you? The slow guys have places to play, so do the fast ones. Times change.

About harming the enviroment. Give me a damn break. There are limits obviously, but driving on a stump IS NOT A BIG DEAL. Yes, the DNR whines about it, they will ticket you for it. But it's not that big of a deal.

How about we just bulldoze it all and build some houses? Maybe turn in into a school? A business park?

Driving on a stump is nothing compared to what happens to forrest lands and semi-wilderness areas every day. I don't see you guys up in arms about people clearing land for homes.

How about we, the people that control the government through votes, take control of our lands. Don't be pussies, don't allow them to take your rights away. They can't take what you don't give them. If you seriously think they can TAKE your wheeling rights, you are a pathetic excuse for an American.

We OWN that land. If it's federal or state land, it is OURS. They do NOT set the rules, we do, they simply enforce them. They can not close the park to public access unless they are allowed to do so by the people. There should obviously be limits on what can happen out there, but they don't need to be ticketing people for driving on a damn stump.

 

[JOOP]

That was a while back... I would deal with it differently now. I can't stop them of course, but I would say something. There was two places that I recall in particular on that trip. One was a bunch of guys playing off the road on a little rock climb outside of the gravel pit area and second on 198 down by the water hole where they were circling around the stump. The rock area was obvious, it was just on the side of the road but it was definitely not part of the trail. The stump they were messing on was a tad more iffy in that it could have been part of the trail.

However, you're right, I should have spoken up, but at that time, I wasn't as sure on the rules as I am now. Here's what I also learned from that. They guys that were messing around, were all the guys that I thought, knew the rules and what they could and couldn't do. It was that very run that helped me to realize how much the newer wheelers look to the buggy and highly built rigs for direction since you'd expect those guys to know. The last 2 years working at Elbe has taught me a lot about what goes on behind the scenes and I take the trail abuse a lot more personally as a result.

You know where Chop Shop started with the tatle on a wheeler crap (I believe I have the story straight). We were running the busy and their group was running it backwards and I told them so.

Times change, we grow...

Good answer, I can accept that.


But damn I was hoping for some drama :haha: :flipoff: :stirpot:

Oh well you covered it good and I respect that. :awesomework:

 

[Travis1]

How about we, the people that control the government through votes, take control of our lands. Don't be pussies, don't allow them to take your rights away. They can't take what you don't give them. If you seriously think they can TAKE your wheeling rights, you are a pathetic excuse for an American.

We don't control the government through votes. Very few laws are voted on directly by the public. The little control we have is through voting in representatives, representatives that can damn well do whatever they please once in office.

So yes, our right to wheel can, and has been taken away in the past.

We OWN that land. If it's federal or state land, it is OURS. They do NOT set the rules, we do, they simply enforce them. They can not close the park to public access unless they are allowed to do so by the people. There should obviously be limits on what can happen out there, but they don't need to be ticketing people for driving on a damn stump.

It's state and federal land, not the public's land. They do set the rules, they also enforce them. They can close the land off to public access when they feel the need. No public comment period is required.

In the case of Elbe, the DNR's first responsibility is the environment and tree sales. Recreation pulls a distant 3rd with motorized access, especially 4x4's at the very bottom of that list.

Don't believe me? How about the entire Sultan basin area as the first example. Tahuya was almost closed a decade ago as well. Then there is Wild Sky - a bill that was illegally passed since the area covered doesn't even meet the requirements to be called a wilderness area. None of those had public input, only Tahuya was saved because the user community came after the DNR and asked for a 2nd chance.

 

[Mark m.]

We don't control the government through votes. Very few laws are voted on directly by the public. The little control we have is through voting in representatives, representatives that can damn well do whatever they please once in office.

So yes, our right to wheel can, and has been taken away in the past.



It's state and federal land, not the public's land. They do set the rules, they also enforce them. They can close the land off to public access when they feel the need. No public comment period is required.

In the case of Elbe, the DNR's first responsibility is the environment and tree sales. Recreation pulls a distant 3rd with motorized access, especially 4x4's at the very bottom of that list.

Don't believe me? How about the entire Sultan basin area as the first example. Tahuya was almost closed a decade ago as well. Then there is Wild Sky - a bill that was illegally passed since the area covered doesn't even meet the requirements to be called a wilderness area. None of those had public input, only Tahuya was saved because the user community came after the DNR and asked for a 2nd chance.

This doesn't make since.
The DNRs first responsibility is the environment and tree sales.
How is cutting down all the trees and selling them good for the environment ?

 

[Travis1]

This doesn't make since.
The DNRs first responsibility is the environment and tree sales.
How is cutting down all the trees and selling them good for the environment ?

Welcome to working with the government.

This isn't about common sense, this is about legal and not legal.

 

[1982cj7]

The DNR's first responsibility is to make money from the land they manage for schools, they do that by protecting the trees and selling them. They do try to use the land in other ways for the public good if it fits into their programs. But make no mistake they will close areas that cost too much or are getting too much damage to their cash crop, trees. The FS is a different story, they are mandated to manage our forests for longevity, all uses are to be considered and planned for if possible and for the good of the forest. They have alot more rules to follow.

 

[Logan80]

We don't control the government through votes. Very few laws are voted on directly by the public. The little control we have is through voting in representatives, representatives that can damn well do whatever they please once in office.

So yes, our right to wheel can, and has been taken away in the past.



It's state and federal land, not the public's land. They do set the rules, they also enforce them. They can close the land off to public access when they feel the need. No public comment period is required.

In the case of Elbe, the DNR's first responsibility is the environment and tree sales. Recreation pulls a distant 3rd with motorized access, especially 4x4's at the very bottom of that list.

Don't believe me? How about the entire Sultan basin area as the first example. Tahuya was almost closed a decade ago as well. Then there is Wild Sky - a bill that was illegally passed since the area covered doesn't even meet the requirements to be called a wilderness area. None of those had public input, only Tahuya was saved because the user community came after the DNR and asked for a 2nd chance.

We DO control what does or does not happen within our government. There might not be a public vote, but you can get laws changed, and you can change the people in power. If you are going to sit there and tell me that they do whatever they want and you have no power over it, then you are mistaken. That's the entire point of a democratic government, if "the people" don't like it, it can be changed.

State and Federal land IS the public's land. If there is enough demand for open areas, they WILL remain open. It's that simple. Let them close off all access to fishing, or hunting. See what happens. The same can happen with off road rec. areas, people just need to stand up for their rights.

 

[Jaydog]

Gibby I got a lot of respect for you and your cause and all that. But I personally believe you gain your strength behind your keyboard and puss out in person. I'll explain...

A few years back you and I and a bunch of other rigs were on a trail run together up at Evan's, early fall. At one point in time some rigs decided to show off on a stump, tore it up , etc... I was standing right by you and you spoke softly, kinda mumbled something along the lines of "I'm sure thats not on the trail, or I'm sure thats not legal".. Something like that or along those words I cant remember exactly. But.........


You did nothing about it. Didn't stop it, didn't go over to the driver and say quit.. Nothing... You did nothing. In fact we all waited until they were done and then the trail run continued.


There's your sign!!!!:corn:

I remember that as well, but I can attest to Gibby getting in a few confrontations on the busy with some drunk yahoos that weren't using tree savers, and a few times with folks running it the wrong way. Dale practices what he preaches and doesn't back down easily. I wouldn't either if I was that big :haha:

 

[Jaydog]

This doesn't make since.
The DNRs first responsibility is the environment and tree sales.
How is cutting down all the trees and selling them good for the environment ?

Trees are a crop, just like corn or wheat, they just take a little longer to grow.

Cutting trees down doesn't hurt the environment, little tires do.

 

[dirtygoat]

The DNR's first responsibility is to make money from the land they manage for schools, they do that by protecting the trees and selling them. They do try to use the land in other ways for the public good if it fits into their programs. But make no mistake they will close areas that cost too much or are getting too much damage to their cash crop, trees. The FS is a different story, they are mandated to manage our forests for longevity, all uses are to be considered and planned for if possible and for the good of the forest. They have alot more rules to follow.

The DNR has a responsibility to the school fund with the selling of trees, yes...

As part of that deal when they were given the land they were required to leave a percentage available to the general public as 'public use'...

The DNR and Nancy are willing to work with all of us to meet the demands of the school funding and public use...

You guys getting in a pissing match to see who's the coolest kid on the interweb is stupid... It does nothing more than take up bandwidth...

Now, if you really think it's one type of rig that's the problem, you should ask your family members nicely to stop breeding... The gene pool is much better off without you and yours...

Education is the answer... And that doesn't mean shoving it down ones throat...

Whatever, I'll still wheel a fullsize...

 

[Logan80]

Don't get me wrong, I'm playing Devil's Advocate a bit here.

I do believe in preservation of what we have, for us and future generations to enjoy. I've been a hunter and fisherman since I could walk. I've always loved the outdoors. But there are limits on just how strictly we should let ourselves be controlled. Once you let someone take control over your rights, you start to lose them.