trail closures

[japerry]

Jim, i think someone else has already said it here, but the problem with IMPACT (which gets mistaken for damage too often) is too many rigs for too few trails....

Closing down a section seasonaly, doing tire restrictions, or doing permits all are bad options. They don't address the problem: too many rigs per mile of trail.

Until the wheeling community can get that point through the FS and DNR's head, we will always be chasing our tails.

Enforce the laws already on the books now, and figure out ways to open up new trails that doesn't take 15 years to do it. The impact footprint will get dispersed, and reducing localized impact (err damage.. blah) which is caused by too many rigs on one trail.

 

[WHITE TRASH1]

You can be damn sure that the PNW has a new agenda up their sleeves.

Mark my words. And they are not caring/fighting for us.

I completely agree. Too bad they have so many people fooled into supporting them. :booo:

 

[japerry]

Oh lets get definitions clear here:

IMPACT: result of people using the trails. This goes for non-motorized and motorized. Impact is directly proportional to the amount of traffic a trail gets, weather conditions, and trail surface. Walker Valley is a prime example of impact.

DAMAGE: result of people abusing the trails. Very rare. Includes going through sensitive areas, and intentionally causing more impact to a trail than normal use.

 

[CHOP SHOP]

I completely agree. Too bad they have so many people fooled into supporting them. :booo:

Jim has been pretty quiet in the past few months. Anytime he keeps his mouth shut it means that the **** soup is simmering.

Now all of a sudden he is testing the waters on the PNWs new proposal to the FS.

All of our opinions dont matter anyways. If he has brought it up here than that means the ball is already rolling. He wont bring it up here if theres a possibility of people that dissagree with them being able to change it.



Jim I flat out just dont trust YOU or the PNW. :looser:

Its sunny out Im going wheeling. :;

 

[whatthe?]

If these are the options the FS is entertaining, we're screwed. If these are the options being presented the FS has already decided what they're going to do. I'm glad my KTM is faster than any of the enforcement vehicles. Close it all down so I'll have a lot of private riding ground. I'd still like to know what 4x4 groups and supporting this closure. Another thing to think about is that it's being considered to make the headwaters of the manastash and taneum into a protected watershed. That usually means that people have to stay out. Sell your rigs, buy a Prius and go hiking.

 

[1982cj7]

I agree with the too few trails means more impact. Also the enforcement being concentrated in high impact areas, historical impact areas is something I cannot believe the F.S. has not done already. As for the poll I voted permits but I think an education license is a better idea. You would have to attend a class for the F.S. to let you know exactly what they expect, then you need the license to go wheeling in the area. If it were a swipe to a gate then they know who is there when damage is done.

 

[whatthe?]

I am totaly against the gov requiring a new license to wheel, I already have one, I got it when I was 16. It's none of the gov business where I am on public land. You might as well have a GPS chip in your butt so they can track your every move.

 

[WHITE TRASH1]

You might as well have a GPS chip in your butt so they can track your every move.

Stop giving the pnw ideas... :booo:

 

[pokey]

Jim has been pretty quiet in the past few months. Anytime he keeps his mouth shut it means that the **** soup is simmering.

Now all of a sudden he is testing the waters on the PNWs new proposal to the FS.

All of our opinions dont matter anyways. If he has brought it up here than that means the ball is already rolling. He wont bring it up here if theres a possibility of people that dissagree with them being able to change it.



Jim I flat out just dont trust YOU or the PNW. :looser:

Its sunny out Im going wheeling. :;

Once again proving that you have no idea as to what's really going on :booo:
My thread here is simply based on a brainstorming session on the way to during and from a work party. There's no PNW collusion, no plan and nothing in the works. Just trying to get some ideas that we could give the FS to avert these kinds of issues. Enjoy your day wheeling :awesomework

 

[Jacob]

No wheeler or rig when operating/operated does anywhere near the damage as logging crews, road crews, or a construction crew. It has been said in this thread already that these types of activities go on within national forest lands often. We all see it. Now what makes these different than the IMPACT that us lowly wheelers have on the same lands? MONEY!!

They all involve funding or revenue of some sort that the sorry gov officials are interested in. I see the only thing saving us and our wheeling grounds is some sort of revenue to back us.

How can we accomplish this? I see several ways. We could have mandatory tread lightly classes before wheeling is authorized. A small fee put on these classes provides revenue. We could have permits for specific areas that puts revenue back into that specific area, not distributed to other agencies or areas.

I hate the idea of having to pay the government any more than what we all already pay to be able to play. We pay taxes, drivers licenses, vehicle licenses, and day use passes in some areas. And I understand the idea that if we give an inch they take a mile just because we were willing to give.

Another solution that I see that might help us is some sort of earned privilege system. Before you can wheel an area, you must spend X amount of time there performing work that is approved and authorized by the FS.

I think what we must do first and foremost is get organized. We have to learn to somewhat agree amongst ourselves first before we try to present options to the FS. What options are we all willing to present that we can all agree on? Hell, any more government control pisses me off. But we may have to learn to play the game so we can keep playing the game we love.

No matter what, we have to police ourselves first and foremost so we do not offer any more chances or excuses to close more of our land. This means having the balls to stand up to someone on the trail that is doing wrong, or having the balls to say you need a line or a strap.

Oh, stop using the word damage when associating information to us. Impact is a much better word to be associated with. There are a lot of us and there are solutions to stop the closure of our lands if we are able to come together and stand up for our selves. It seems that more and more us wheelers are being seen as a problem to the FS. I learned a long time ago that the only way to address what someone sees as a problem is to go at them with a proposed solution.

 

[Gibby1]

It's none of the gov business where I am on public land.

Yes, it IS thier business. Just because it's publically owned does not mean that you have the right or even the privledge to use it how YOU see fit. A lot of people think that it is, but that's simply not the truth.

The government controls almost all of the land that we legally use, they don't just own it. That means that they can, do and will continue to control access and restrict usage. You cannot just do what you want on public land.

 

[dirtygoat]

Yep, the word damage should not be used when describing a trail... :awesomework:

Damage is created when someone goes off of the trail...

"Over use" might be acceptable...

We need to understand the way we talk about these things and how the non-wheelers process such words...

Instead of saying that an area of a trial is damaged, we should refer to it as being over used... Then the only solution we should provide is that we need more trails available to cut down on "over use"...

 

[Gibby1]

Once again proving that you have no idea as to what's really going on :booo:
My thread here is simply based on a brainstorming session on the way to during and from a work party. There's no PNW collusion, no plan and nothing in the works. Just trying to get some ideas that we could give the FS to avert these kinds of issues. Enjoy your day wheeling :awesomework

You're beating a bit of a dead horse here Jim. Until the PNW4WDA openly supports all 4x4 users and proves it with their actions, they are going to be critcized and hamstrung by a lack of support. You and others have said this, you support the membership and that's true regardless of whether or not the membership is representative of the entire community. Much of the community will not become members because they don't feel that they are being represented or will be represented.

I do some some slow grumblings in the right direction, but as long at the USFS thinks that the PNW4WDA represents the 4x4 community then many of the people that are on this board (for example) are not being represented to the USFS. Joining the PNW4WDA does not really help (I am a member) if their individual voices don't make a difference.

On a positive note, I think Angie's on the right track with her leadership. Ed has been fighting in the right direction as well, but they are still hamstrung by the desire of the membership to support the needs of the membership instead of the needs of the entire community. It may take a generation to make that change and hopefully, it's not too late for all of us.

 

[whatthe?]

Yes, it IS thier business. Just because it's publically owned does not mean that you have the right or even the privledge to use it how YOU see fit. A lot of people think that it is, but that's simply not the truth.

The government controls almost all of the land that we legally use, they don't just own it. That means that they can, do and will continue to control access and restrict usage. You cannot just do what you want on public land.

It is none of the gov buisiness WHERE I'm at on public land, that's what I said. It is their business WHAT I'm doing. Not cutting trees illegally, not hunting illegally, not driving illegally. Read better, it does make a difference. Words matter and have meaning, pay better attention.

 

[pokey]

You're beating a bit of a dead horse here Jim. Until the PNW4WDA openly supports all 4x4 users and proves it with their actions, they are going to be critcized and hamstrung by a lack of support. You and others have said this, you support the membership and that's true regardless of whether or not the membership is representative of the entire community. Much of the community will not become members because they don't feel that they are being represented or will be represented.

I do some some slow grumblings in the right direction, but as long at the USFS thinks that the PNW4WDA represents the 4x4 community then many of the people that are on this board (for example) are not being represented to the USFS. Joining the PNW4WDA does not really help (I am a member) if their individual voices don't make a difference.

On a positive note, I think Angie's on the right track with her leadership. Ed has been fighting in the right direction as well, but they are still hamstrung by the desire of the membership to support the needs of the membership instead of the needs of the entire community. It may take a generation to make that change and hopefully, it's not too late for all of us.

But yet here I am asking for opinions and ideas here and all I get (for the most part) is a bunch of BS. How can we represent the users when they won't provide usable imput.

 

[whatthe?]

If you wade through some of the BS, there are suggestions. Make bypasses, better LEO enforcement, a tread lightly course, more/new trails to disperse wheelers. We just don't like your poll options, none of them are good.

 

[japerry]

But yet here I am asking for opinions and ideas here and all I get (for the most part) is a bunch of BS. How can we represent the users when they won't provide usable imput.

Look at the three options you gave us. Thats why people are skeptical of you and the PNW in general.

Sure you asked for input, but the way you simply asked the question already implies bias. you might have not meant it to be that way, but if you knew people who wheeled every weekend, you would know that none of those options are acceptable in the first place.

An organization that represents me would be telling DNR and the FS that the only true option is by creating more trail. Allowing areas of low impact to have user built trails will do more for sustainability than any single trail work party ever will.

 

[pokey]

If you wade through some of the BS, there are suggestions. Make bypasses, better LEO enforcement, a tread lightly course, more/new trails to disperse wheelers. We just don't like your poll options, none of them are good.

I see those and take note of them :awesomework: Regardless of what some people seam to think we do pay attention. I agree none of the options are good but look at where we are right now :booo:

 

[pokey]

Look at the three options you gave us. Thats why people are skeptical of you and the PNW in general.

Sure you asked for input, but the way you simply asked the question already implies bias. you might have not meant it to be that way, but if you knew people who wheeled every weekend, you would know that none of those options are acceptable in the first place.

An organization that represents me would be telling DNR and the FS that the only true option is by creating more trail. Allowing areas of low impact to have user built trails will do more for sustainability than any single trail work party ever will.

Its nothing to do with the PNW4WDA. The options you need to be looking at are what the FS is offering now. Which is none :booo:

We know we need more trails they know we need more trails. Are we going to get more trails? Very very unlikly. We have to learn to work with what we have.

 

[whatthe?]

Its nothing to do with the PNW4WDA. The options you need to be looking at are what the FS is offering now. Which is none :booo:

We know we need more trails they know we need more trails. Are we going to get more trails? Very very unlikly. We have to learn to work with what we have AND ARE LOSING.

Fixed

 

[Homey]

i have no problem with the june 15th date for the eastside trails....been coming for a long time.the other problem will be how many people will be at evans or elbe now...

 

[Bill]

And this.Lets make it clear. Its not a issue as to what I call damage. Its what THEY (FS) call damage. We have no control over that. All we can hope to try to do is to midigate how we deal with it. So far they like their idea best :booo:

you are crazy if you think you can mitigate evidence of us being there...maybe time for you to get a pair of hiking boots you old fart.....wheeled vehicles leave tracks and sometimes even ruts...but as they should on a trail for said vehicles



I saw the pic of you damaging your lawn too!

 

[Bunk1]

You can be damn sure that the PNW has a new agenda up their sleeves.

Mark my words. And they are not caring/fighting for us.

X2. Having pokey involved in any way is bad news for all of us.:stirpot:

 

[Binder]

Originally Posted by CHOP SHOP
You can be damn sure that the PNW has a new agenda up their sleeves.

Mark my words. And they are not caring/fighting for us.

X2. Having pokey involved in any way is bad news for all of us.:stirpot:

What makes anyone think the PNW is there to care/ fight for "us" when "us" are not PNW members?
Bunk have you ever met Pokey?...Pokey isn't bad news for all of us even if we disagree on things. There are way worse people trying to be involved. There's only so many people who are willing to put in the time/ effort to make a difference and the rest of us get to pick one of them or none at all. None at all is a perfectly fine choice to make but don't be suprised when your opinion doesn't mean **** to other people.:cheer:

 

[Bunk1]

Bunk have you ever met Pokey?...

Yes i have. I was also in charge of damage control 2 or so years ago when all the 'old guard' of pnw4wda were bagging whore members behind closed doors when they didnt know what was really going on. Clearing that sesspool made me realize the kind of people they are.

For someone to represent a community of people, They must be one of them. Jim is a old school wheeler, He will not change and has his ideal of a 'built rig' that does what he wants. Younger more adrenaline charged wheelers have their own agenda and it is far from Jims. Having him represent anyone but people who have his agenda is not productive.

That's my personal feeling on this deal.

 

[Jacob]

Well, spinning wheels is all I see. Maybe everyone as a group can vote on representatives for each area that would be the point of contact with the FS and be responsible for the area. Sure we would end up doing the jobs of the USFS, but at least we would be policing ourselves and showing that wheelers as a whole can be responsible with our resources.

Maybe some publicity would help. Maybe if said representatives could get with some of the local news channels to do some stories on why we need more land and show them that if it were not for us out there policing these lands as active users they would be overrun by illegal activities.

We know we need more trails, and we need more areas open year round without closures. How can we actively demonstrate this to the USFS without making ourselves or our sport look questionable to them?

I honestly think it will come down to us having to pool funds to keep these areas open to our sport. Funds do not necessarily have to mean money, but our resources as good hard working people willing to share our time. I remember back when we lived here before that Crash and a whole group of wheelers were working directly with the people 'over' Reiter to close off the Wall trail so the rest of the area could stay open, but this did nothing to stop the closure. How can we change these views and outcomes in the future?

These are the things that will help us as a group. We have to learn from past events and go at the issues with solutions instead of bickering amongst ourselves on an open forum that USFS and everyone else has access to. We need to organize like never before and have face to face meetings on these issues to come up with solutions.

I wheel an almost stock Jeep and do not have plans to build a wild wheeler out of it. I have no issues with others who choose to wheel very well built rigs. I enjoy seeing them use the trails just as much as I enjoy using them. Some of my reason for me going wheeling is the 'free' entertainment that they provide as they navigate trails. As long as everyone is using the resources legally then we should all be getting along no matter what type/size of wheeler we choose to use.

Heck, I was on upper 311 and saw a stock rig dig out a hole, well built rig went behind them and dug it out worse. I was not about to even try it. I knew it would be winch or strap. I got my shovel out, spent 5 minutes with it and patched the hole so I could get by without more IMPACT. Was up there the week after and the hole was still filled in and no more IMPACT was evident. These are the things that we, as wheelers, are going to have to do as a whole to keep our areas open.

It could come down to something as simple as- if you know you IMPACTED the trail, get out and fix it on the spot. If we as an entire group would make ever so slight changes as these then I think more external groups might look at us more positively.

I am just brain storming with the rest of you guys. No matter what resolution we choose, it will involve a lot of volunteer work and time to throw at the issues as a group.

 

[Homey]

doesn't make any difference if we're old school or the "new generation"....everyone on here needs to call or email the forest service let them know what these closures mean to us as a group. would be nice if we could have meeting with them....closures are not the solution..

 

[dirtygoat]

doesn't make any difference if we're old school or the "new generation"....everyone on here needs to call or email the forest service let them know what these closures mean to us as a group. would be nice if we could have meeting with them....closures are not the solution..

You can show up to meetings and speak your mind... There's tons of meetings... But there is a lack of users that get involved with that part...

It's hard sometimes to make it to the meetings, but you can find time to hit at least the closest to you and get involved... I try and get to some of them when I can in other areas...

I'm at every Elbe meeting, that's why I'm so tuned into what's happening there...

I'll tell you this, over the last couple years, there's a small group that are always at the Elbe focus group meeting... It's always the same faces... These are the people that usually have the most say in what happens...

If you can't make those meetings, then hit up a WOW or PNW meeting and listen to the reports from members that make the FS/DNR meetings...

 

[whatthe?]

But there are some 4x4 groups (according to the FS) that think we need closures. Who are they? If they do exist, they need to be tossed out of the 4x4 community.

 

[Terminator]

But there are some 4x4 groups (according to the FS) that think we need closures. Who are they? If they do exist, they need to be tossed out of the 4x4 community.

x2 on that :awesomework: